Two players are reading The Flesh Is Weak trait differently and I'd love some clarification. Player 1 says that a techmarine that takes this trait now has the machine trait and is therefore defined as a machine, including the text under the machine trait on page 133. This also includes all of the machine implants listed (electro graft, potentia coil, etc). Under this method of reading, the tech marine, as a machine, gains AP to all areas of his body equal to the number of times The Flesh Is Weak has been taken, as well as the other listed benefits.

Player 2 believes this is too powerful for a Rank 1 trait and suggests that the reading should be that areas of the body that have a cybernetic enhancement or replacement are the only areas that receive said AP bonus.

Which reading is correct?

You must notice that this Talent requires player to have Mechanicus or Techmarine Implants

From Techmarines starting Talents and Traits, (sorry don't have page number here):

"The Techmarine begins the game with the Mechanicus(Techmarine) Implants Trait (p.134)" So he has Potentia Coil, Electro-craft, Electoo inductors etc etc from the beginning.

The Flesh is Weak Talent:

"This Talent grants the character the Machine Trait (p.133) with Armour Points equal to the number of times this Talent has been taken."

So Player 1 reading is in my terms correct.

Wow, so the tech marine can then have +3 AP to all locations from this talent alone (taken three times)??

Good lord.

Wow, so the tech marine can then have +3 AP to all locations from this talent alone (taken three times)??

Good lord.

The techmarine's core ability (other than, you know, technology) is that he can rack up faintly ridiculous levels of durability; toughness increases are cheap, The Flesh Is Weak gives you extra armour, high-craftsmanship bionics give you local toughness boosts, and you get access to Artificer Armour earlier and more cheaply than any other specialisation.

There are two arguments for this; firstly a lot of the techmarine abilities he gets later on are powered by giving up your reaction for the turn (meaning no dodging things) and secondly...well...not to put too fine a point on it he has no real special ability in a fight. Bolter Mastery and Unrelenting Devastation, to pick out two examples, are seriously scary for a starting marine.

Don't forget that Cybernetics also give +2 to Toughness bonus on said body part (only once mind you) So Cybernetic right arm would give +2 to toughnes in that area.

Here's a somewhat related question. The Ironhands can get The Flesh is Weak as a chapter advance does this mean they can get it without the prereqs?

Tech marines quickly become walking tanks. Give them a servo harness and they are looking at a few extra points of strength and toughness. They can sit there and become a sponge for damage with high armour and toughness. The trade off usually being they have fewer combat or attack based abilities compared to others. For example they only have one melee attack and don't get swift attack or anything like that. I dont even think they get some parry or dodging stuff.

Though as someone pointed out in another thread, while they become really armoured, they do gain a critical weakness. Basically since they are becoming more and more augmented, I would start to argue that as they replace flesh with machine and gain the machine trait, they should probably become more susceptible to things like EMP grenades in exchange. Imagine, most of your body is a machine, one EMP blast and you find half your body just stops working. But of course that's just me...

Here's a somewhat related question. The Ironhands can get The Flesh is Weak as a chapter advance does this mean they can get it without the prereqs?

As stated under "Iron Hands Chapter Trappings" Page 13 of First Founding: Iron hands count as having Mechanicus Implants for talents, but NOT wargear.

Player 1 is going to be very happy.

Here's a somewhat related question. The Ironhands can get The Flesh is Weak as a chapter advance does this mean they can get it without the prereqs?

As stated under "Iron Hands Chapter Trappings" Page 13 of First Founding: Iron hands count as having Mechanicus Implants for talents, but NOT wargear.

Man a an Ironhand techmarine can soak some serious damage. By rank 8 thats 8 levels of the flesh is weak not counting the low cost toughness advances

But I am definitely going to use the EMP affects him rules. Especially if he continues on the track of being more machine than human.

How do you work out the EMP rules? For example, how do you determine whether or not a body part or more is affected?

EMP use the Haywire (3) rules which states that anything machine based within 3 metres is affected. Then its a D100 roll with low being minor disruptions, weapons and power armour weakening in function all the way up to a full technical blackout for a while. You also have a 40% chance of messing with mechanical implants and cybernetics to start adding fatigue each round.

Then of course at GM discretion (not in rules, purely fluffy) you could, depending how mean you want to be, trigger that since he's taken bionic eyes which are now offline/disrupted you could make him blind as well for a moment or other similar effects depending on what organs he's lost. I'd just like to point out I'm not an evil GM, honest!

When this has come up before, general consensus is that by RAI The Flesh Is Weak is not intended to give tyou invulnerability to vacuum, mind control, and so forth. Just the natural armour (that protects against fire).

In my Mechanicus- oriented DH game I use houserule: each stage of Flash is Weak provides a cumulative +10 bonus to resist vacuum, mind control, cold etc. Works for me.

You don`t find your characters getting too buffed from this? Or do they not become too powerful because it is Dark Heresy and PCs are naturally not as strong as DW?

+10 cumulative bonus is much better than the instant full immunity as would happen by the RAW.

I have a Salamander Techmarine who has no intention of taking flesh is weak, he sees it as a step too far away from humanity, he's very touch feely when it comes to people so doesn't want to become a machine and scare them.

In the long run I'll most likely end up dead the way my luck has been running lately.

Here's a somewhat related question. The Ironhands can get The Flesh is Weak as a chapter advance does this mean they can get it without the prereqs?

As stated under "Iron Hands Chapter Trappings" Page 13 of First Founding: Iron hands count as having Mechanicus Implants for talents, but NOT wargear.

Man a an Ironhand techmarine can soak some serious damage. By rank 8 thats 8 levels of the flesh is weak not counting the low cost toughness advances

8 levels of TFIW? Where do you get this? I see a Techmarine as having TFIW 1-5 on his table and Iron Hands being able to purchase 1-3. I don't see this as cumulative.

Hmm. My reading is that each increment of The Flesh is Weak is purchaseable once only. The Talent is not "The Flesh Is Weak +1" (which would wholly support your argument of buying it 8 times). The Talent is "The Flesh is Weak 1," "The Flesh Is Weak 2," etc. There's no TFIW 6, 7, or 8. Typically you cannot buy the same Talent more than once unless the Talent, in its description, says otherwise (generally Sound Constitution).

So (not to be harsh, but curious as to your reading) what makes you think you can buy TFIW 1 once off the Iron Hands Table and buy the same Talent again off the Techmarine table and have them stack for a total of 2?

Here's a somewhat related question. The Ironhands can get The Flesh is Weak as a chapter advance does this mean they can get it without the prereqs?

As stated under "Iron Hands Chapter Trappings" Page 13 of First Founding: Iron hands count as having Mechanicus Implants for talents, but NOT wargear.

Man a an Ironhand techmarine can soak some serious damage. By rank 8 thats 8 levels of the flesh is weak not counting the low cost toughness advances

8 levels of TFIW? Where do you get this? I see a Techmarine as having TFIW 1-5 on his table and Iron Hands being able to purchase 1-3. I don't see this as cumulative.

Hmm. My reading is that each increment of The Flesh is Weak is purchaseable once only. The Talent is not "The Flesh Is Weak +1" (which would wholly support your argument of buying it 8 times). The Talent is "The Flesh is Weak 1," "The Flesh Is Weak 2," etc. There's no TFIW 6, 7, or 8. Typically you cannot buy the same Talent more than once unless the Talent, in its description, says otherwise (generally Sound Constitution).

So (not to be harsh, but curious as to your reading) what makes you think you can buy TFIW 1 once off the Iron Hands Table and buy the same Talent again off the Techmarine table and have them stack for a total of 2?

You are correct, since The Flesh is Weak 2 is a specific talent, with a pre-requisite of The Flesh is Weak 1, you cannot purchase it multiple times as you cannot purchase the same advance more than once unless it is followed by: (x*) where * is a number, (Choose X) where X is a number, or (Any).

Alternately once you upgrade your TheFlesh is Weak 1 to The Flesh is Weak 2 you no longer have The Flesh is Weak 1 and therefore no longer meat the pre-requisites for The Flesh is Weak 2.