Don't like this thread cps then here is the door. Don't be telling people this is a waste of time. These are one of the few issues that many people of both betas agree that it is a problem. The majority of people in this forum want a more powerful blank against the warp, but with a powerful weakness as well. We are discussing how to make that happen. If you can't see that, then just go.

Let's assume for the moment that Untouchables encompasses everything that is the Pariah gene: Mechanically they should be immune to the psychic powers and warp phenomena (probably should be able to do damage to daemons or at least affect them negatively). At the same time, they should make all those around them feel uncomfortable at least and hostile at most cause if we assume that there is only a static type of untouchable and not varying degrees of untouchables then they should all be like culexus assassins (i hope that made sense). They should be powerful and the price for being one should be heavy (maybe minus 20 plus 1d10 off of fellowship cause they still can conversate... kinda).

Hey all, the most relevant fluff sources that I can think of for Untouchables vs. Pariahs comes from the Ravenor, Eisenhorn, Pariah series of books, Nemesis (features a warp-spawn pariah, weird), and a mention in one of the old rulebooks in which a Eldar ship was on the brink of destroying the culexus temple, then decided against it. Those are just things I've come across. In regards to their actual "warp" difference, its always been portrayed that Untouchables had no warp presence while Pariahs (necron engineered weapons against the warp) were negative signatures in the warp. Furthermore, there is evidence of Untouchables becoming weaker over time, but not so for Pariahs. Furthermore, neither "develops", that is, comes into existence slowly. People are either Untouchable/Pariah or not, at birth, unless there is some fluff magic the 'crons can pull off. They also don't get stronger (as represented by talent advances), only weaker (with the exception of pariahs). Finally, the Fellowship component of Untouchables is minor, usually described as "something off" or "bad luck". It would be perhaps be better represented by expensive Fellowship skill advances (or lack of the ability to take the Fellowship aptitude) and loss of a fate point. As for Pariahs, they really shouldn't be in the game at all, they're so rare. That said, they are chilling to be around, to say the least.

It's worth noting Culexus assassins are put through hell to get where they are; intensive training from a young age, likely a lot of biological and mechanical augmentation, not to mention their headgear which augments their powers to a pretty major extent.

It's worth noting Culexus assassins are put through hell to get where they are; intensive training from a young age, likely a lot of biological and mechanical augmentation, not to mention their headgear which augments their powers to a pretty major extent.

True. However, its my understanding that (aside from the headgear) all that does is make them better assassins, not better pariahs.

True. The headgear is the main concern, but it's damned big one. Big enough that I'd say Culexus Assassins really shouldn't be considered too heavily in the Pariah PCs debate.

True. The headgear is the main concern, but it's damned big one. Big enough that I'd say Culexus Assassins really shouldn't be considered too heavily in the Pariah PCs debate.

I see your reasoning but it hinders the debate. We have very few lore instances of Pariah's (if any) outside of that temple. Most mentions of the headgear seem to imply that what it does is "weaponize" their warp negativity so they can shoot "negative energy" or something like that out of the headgear. Using them as a reference to argue that Untouchables and Pariahs are different still seems valid. Furthermore, it doesn't really effect the issue of whether or not PC's can be Pariahs as there is a system in place for PC's to be Untouchables, not Pariahs, and doesn't influence how rare Pariahs are.

My house-rules for untouchables have been that they are immune to the warp directly affecting them (so basically all of telepathy and most of biomancy, but stuff that affects them indirectly like Smite, Assail, shockwave and most of pyromancy still work) but NPCs count as having the aggressive personality and start with low disposition, as well as a few purely narrative-based effects of being an untouchable. They've yet to directly face a Daemon, but I'm thinking they should be weakened somehow by being within the untouchables aura, any ideas?

Maybe make them test Warp Instability every round, regardless of what they do?

I maintain anyone who uses the word 'lulz' in any kind of conversation is at least a little bit stupid.

Yawn. I maintain that anyone who is silly enough to gauge the intellect of others by what internet lingo they use is not worth taking seriously. Contribute to the topic or troll somewhere else. Your policing of other peoples' posts is boring me now.

Maybe make them test Warp Instability every round, regardless of what they do?

As far as I can tell, Warp Instability as it was in DH1 no longer exists. In DH2.0 we seem to have just "instability", which is no longer a test. Paraphrased, if a Daemon suffering from instability takes takes a wound, it has the duration of the round to inflict a wound on an enemy, otherwise it automatically loses another wound at the end of the round. No tests or saves allowed, apparently.

Despite the lack of saves the daemon has, it is only a single extra wound, which isn't that big of a deal considering how large wound pools get. I would say that it's acceptably fluffy, but still relatively impotent enough to not make the class overpowered (because regardless of the warp stability, they're still immune to psychic attacks, which is incredibly powerful). So I approve.

An alternative idea that popped into my head was that perhaps daemons could suffer penalties when attempting to attack or detect an Untouchable in a manner similar to suffering from the "Darkness and shadow" combat circumstance (-20 to hit, target gets a +20 to stealth).

I remember that in Fear to Tread , the Untouchable managed to survive unscathed despite the entire planet becoming a daemon world because the daemons simply couldn't sense her. Not being physical creatures, daemons use some kind of "warp sense" to see their surroundings. As Untouchables have no warp signature, they're effectively invisible to Daemon senses. So, daemons getting penalties to hit and detect a Blank would be a decent abstraction of that.

I'm still yet to see any canon sources that differentiate Untouchables and Pariahs. I feel like it's basically semantics.

As shown here

• Omega

Usually referred to as Untouchables , Pariahs , or Blanks . These individuals are so inert in the Warp as to actually exhibit negative psychic influence upon others. Primarily manifested as a small region of "blankness" surrounding the individual, it is impossible for psychic powers or warp creatures to penetrate this space. Those at an Omega level of psi-negativity can easily be distinguished by others, as Imperial science has shown the dead-area surrounding the subject interferes with natural electrical-mental functions. This often results in irrational fear and loathing of the individual for normal humans. For psykers , however, Omega level persons are physically and mentally painful to be near.

At least as I read it they mean the same thing.

I'm starting to get the impression that there may have once upon a time been a difference between Pariah and other Untouchables, perhaps due to old Necron fluff or something, but as the years have gone by the fluff has homogenized the two terms into being interchangeable.

Wystan Frauka was an Untouchable. His continued close proximity to Zael (a powerful "reflective" psyker) resulted in Wystan "burning out." However, Wystan completely "shut down" the Agent-Psyker Kinsky as he attempts to murder Ravenor with his power.

Re Pariahs: a case can be made that Bequin was a Pariah, though Gregor Eisenhorn specifically refers to her in 'Xenos' as an Untouchable. However, Bequin's presence actually "hurt" Cherubael when he came near to her. The newer series, 'Pariah', introduces a "clone" of Bequin...and the title of the series is 'Pariah', so read what you will of that.

Necron (old fluff): Pariahs are "crafted from a terrible symbiosis of Necron technology and human evolution...", whatever that means,"...blotting out psychic emanations..." and scaring the crap out of everyone with their palpable aura of dread.

Also fr: original Necron Codex: Farseer Alladrios of Craftworld Allaitoc was on the cusp of destroying a hidden temple of the Cullexus; looking down upon the world Alladrios saw "...just a rock, scarred by the absence of any warp reflection at all." He then had a vision of Allaitoc in ruins, and turned his vessel away from its course of destruction "...and with each passing second, the pall of fear that had so paralyzed the crew subsided."

I get the impression that Pariahs are more powerful than Untouchables. I also get the impression that Pariahs are "BAM! SHUT YOU DOWN! NOW RUN!", where Untouchables possess varying degrees of...Untouchableness. Nowhere can I find mention of Untouchables "honing" their ability to greater effect. They either have it, or in some instances they lose it, but it never gets more potent.

I've read Eisenhorn and Ravenor dozens of times. Wystan shut down what for all intents and purposes is an extremely powerful rogue psyker just by turning off his inhibitor. Bequin was essentially killed through direct contact with a warp-infused Titan MIU, but just her presense held a Daemonhost at bay...so I'm going with Untouchables being less powerful and Pariahs the paragon of psy-null.

I have played an untouchable in both DH1 and the beta rules, let me assure you that the power (for the same initial 'buy in' cost of 400XP) is very much reduced. In DH1 when we fought psykers and demons my character was IMMUNE to psychic effects and caused deamons to be a much lesser threat to the party due to the penalties generated on warp instability. In my last session of DH beta I came under psychic assault from a wych trying to dominate me, and use crush. I wasnt dominated, but did take a wound (old system, we've not swapped yet) from crush.

In order to get a bonus +20 on wp I had to buy Psychic null for another 300 or so XP. So after nearly double the XP investment I am at a fraction of the power granted by just one of the abilities that untouchables used to have.

Whichever way you slice it, total immunity vs taking some damage is better. I have play tested it, even though really this should have been self evident. The argument has never been that the system is unworkable (and I should know, I'm the OP ) it was that there are many things in the talent tree missing that would even allow untouchables to buy talents to accurately represent them from a fluff standpoint (this has improved with the Beta MK2 though)

Cail if those talents don't much up with the fluff it had already failed. There is no need for testing at this point. Everyone knows it is in fact a failure.

Cail if those talents don't much up with the fluff it had already failed. There is no need for testing at this point. Everyone knows it is in fact a failure.

Personally, I feel that designing interesting game mechanics takes priority over following the 40k fluff to the letter. Representing the universe accurately is certainly important -- I know I was attracted to Dark Heresy in the first place because it took place in the 40k universe, and I'd have serious objections if the system broke the fluff in major ways. However, I'm ok with Untouchables simply hindering the use of psychic powers rather than shutting them off completely. The core idea (Untouchables reduce the power of nearby psykers) remains intact, so the fluff is being bent rather than broken.

As a GM, I feel there are several valid reasons for keeping Untouchables from nullifying psychic powers entirely:

• Psykers are interesting challenges for the players. To me, the climactic battle with the mighty sorcerer cult leader and his followers in the midst of a Chaos ritual is one of the strongest images of Dark Heresy (and the Inquisition in general). If one of the party members is an Untouchable, that mighty sorcerer is suddenly reduced to an angry guy with a wooden stick, and much of the drama and threat of the encounter is lost. In more general terms, one of the more unique enemy types available to the GM (psykers) is countered completely by a couple talents chosen by a single PC.
• Untouchables are useful counters to a PC psyker, but seem unfair if they completely stop powers from working. Some heretical cults that don't utilize daemons or psykers of their own would benefit greatly by employing an Untouchable against a psychic PC. They are particularly flavorful weapons in the arsenal of a psyker-hating Khorne cult. However, PC psykers might strongly object to an enemy who shuts down their powers completely, rendering them almost useless in combat. The Warrior party member could gun down the offending Untouchable, but since they are outwardly identical to normal humans this doesn't even make for an interesting tactical challenge.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but please consider these implications before demanding that FFG change the Untouchable talents.

I have characters and scenarios drawn up for my aforementioned Untouchable power tests, and I will run the tests when my gaming group is free tomorrow. Results and impressions will be posted shortly afterward, most likely in a new thread as this one is already quite long.

Cail if those talents don't much up with the fluff it had already failed. There is no need for testing at this point. Everyone knows it is in fact a failure.

I think you misread my post. The first three paragraphs are actually a quote from someone else. I'm in total agreement with you if you read the whole thing.

Also, if you read my post that started this discussion, you would see that it was this very point that made me start the thread...

****... Sorry about that Cail. I thought you were giving us mess up signals with that last post.

Still my point stands. If the fluff stats total immunity you better hand out total immunity. I don't want to see a bend, or any of that nonsense. I don't even care if this "breaks the balance" of the game. If you don't do what is in the fluff you failed.

• Psykers are interesting challenges for the players. To me, the climactic battle with the mighty sorcerer cult leader and his followers in the midst of a Chaos ritual is one of the strongest images of Dark Heresy (and the Inquisition in general). If one of the party members is an Untouchable, that mighty sorcerer is suddenly reduced to an angry guy with a wooden stick, and much of the drama and threat of the encounter is lost. In more general terms, one of the more unique enemy types available to the GM (psykers) is countered completely by a couple talents chosen by a single PC.
• Untouchables are useful counters to a PC psyker, but seem unfair if they completely stop powers from working. Some heretical cults that don't utilize daemons or psykers of their own would benefit greatly by employing an Untouchable against a psychic PC. They are particularly flavorful weapons in the arsenal of a psyker-hating Khorne cult. However, PC psykers might strongly object to an enemy who shuts down their powers completely, rendering them almost useless in combat. The Warrior party member could gun down the offending Untouchable, but since they are outwardly identical to normal humans this doesn't even make for an interesting tactical challenge.

You can still TK a rock at them and an Untouchable doesn't need to stop psykers completely, just make it harder to use their powers.

You can still TK a rock at them and an Untouchable doesn't need to stop psykers completely, just make it harder to use their powers.

It sounds like we agree on the opinion that Untouchables shouldn't stop psyker powers completely, but we have different opinions on how exactly this should be expressed in game terms.

Personally, I've never been a fan of the DH 1.0 Untouchables. If I understand the rules correctly, they were immune to the direct effects of psychic powers but could still be indirectly harmed by them. This caused all kinds of rules oddities; you couldn't blast an Untouchable with telekinetic force, but throwing rocks at him is just fine (actions which are both covered by the Assail power in DH 2.0). Furthermore, a massive psychic Firestorm wouldn't harm an Untouchable acolyte, but if the same pyrokine used his powers to ignite a bunch of promethium barrels the acolyte would take lots of damage. If the psyker in question is a telepath or diviner, they're just S.O.L. when it comes to harming the Untouchable.

The DH 2.0 Untouchable system makes a whole lot more sense to me. On top of that, it applies to all psychic disciplines equally.

The fire thing is odd.

The fire thing would really be a GM call. That is the one problem with the DH1.0 rules is that they do rely on the GM's discretion for when they do or do not apply.

To be honest the original post has become rather redundant now thanks to the BETA update, so it might be best if we move to discussing the new suggestions, rather than the criticisms of the initial BETA.

The problem is at present the untouchable advance provide NO protection against any non opposed psychic powers, which doesn't seem right to me. There should be some level where an untouchable is harder to hurt with psychic based attacks even if they dont require an opposed roll.

Secondly I think there needs to be something that allows the untouchables to be undetectable by psychic detection, as this is a HUGE part of the fluff of the cullexus (sp?) assassins.

The rules that effect daemons seem much better now.

Again I'm not saying this things should be just 'granted' I agree that for 400xp DH1 rules were over powered, but the option to purchase them should be available.