I've always been a fan of untouchables in the setting and I'm really pleased to see that they're being treated almost as a new type of psyker in the new edition of the rules. However there are a couple of things that are bothering me about the implementation.

For a start, while Soulless specifies that the character no longer has a presence in the warp there are no mechanical effects to reflect this. It used to be that Untouchables couldn't be detected by powers like detect life or psyniscience, but now they seem to have no bonus towards being undetectable by psychic means. Similarly it used to be that force weapons didn't gain bonus damage against them because they had no soul to destroy, but there is nothing relating to this here.

2) It used to be that untouchables were immune to the direct effects of psychic attacks but could be effected indirectly (a telekinetically thrown car could still crush them for example). I'm not suggesting total immunity is the way to go in the new system, but it would be nice if they gained (or had the ability to gain) some form of resistance against powers these kind of powers without having to be stood next to the psyker making the attack.

3) I feel like Untouchables should gain (or again, be able to gain) a bonus to 'deny the witch' as an evade action. After all their existence is meant to be anathema to pyskers, literally lacking the part of their existence that psychic powers manipulate.

I'm not saying what is there isn't interesting. But at the moment it seems like they get treated like any other human if the psyker trying to effect them is stood out of their 'bubble' which is fine for the effects of some powers, but it seems to be a bit lacking as a way of representing the established fluff for them.

What do you guys think?

I think Untouchables currently are just a shadow of what they should be.

Make them more expensive and/or give them some more negative side effects, but please make them REAL UNTOUCHABLE.

I've not got a large opinion either way. Untouchables are cool but I've not got an untouchable PC close to my heart or played either type. I will say this though. If they are going to make untouchable something that you can level up, the top level powers should be better than what you got for just flat purchasing it in DH1. That only seems fair

I think Untouchables currently are just a shadow of what they should be.

Make them more expensive and/or give them some more negative side effects, but please make them REAL UNTOUCHABLE.

I think its important to remember the difference in the fluff between an Untouchable and a Pariah. It'd be nice if they put some way of scaling the two together at high levels (after all if Psykers can become Alpha psykers, the next step for an Untouchable is a Pariah). Unfortunately that would go massively against the pre-existing fluff as well because its determined at a genetic level. Untouchables are carriers of the pariah gene in its recessive form, Pariahs have are fluff blown affliction so 'levelling up' into being a Pariah makes little sense.

If there is a way to make a Untouchable into a Pariah It might be something that hasn't come up in fluff yet.

I've always questioned the supposed 'distinction' between Pariahs and Untouchables. Far as I've seen, the terms are used almost completely interchangeably, and the difference in power levels seems to entirely stem from different authors representing soulless characters differently.

What bit of fluff actually establishes a distinction between Pariah and Untouchable? I sure haven't seen it, but I've seen everyone act like it's common knowledge.

You know I'm actually not sure, but whether that's a case of source amnesia or if I just heard it enough times I accepted it was in a book or something I don't know (I don't read 40k fiction as most of it is badly written in my mind, so there's a lot of stuff that escapes me despite being a fairly hardcore fan of the setting for the last 21 years). It seems to make sense though, given the different ways in which people can be affected by the Psychic gene. I know that's hardly conclusive though.

Having said that there is an argument that once something is accepted within the community to such a large extent without it being clarified, we can take it on face value that until its said otherwise then it can be considered canon (Like the Legion of the damned being the Firehawks chapter, for example).

I've always questioned the supposed 'distinction' between Pariahs and Untouchables. Far as I've seen, the terms are used almost completely interchangeably, and the difference in power levels seems to entirely stem from different authors representing soulless characters differently.

What bit of fluff actually establishes a distinction between Pariah and Untouchable? I sure haven't seen it, but I've seen everyone act like it's common knowledge.

As far as I know, it's not clear, and was never made clear. A "Pariah" is just a high-ranking Untouchable; that is, it's lower down on "the Assignment". A Pariah is to a regular Untouchable what a Primaris Psyker is to an Astropath.

Or at least that's the way I've understood it.

I think Untouchables currently are just a shadow of what they should be.

Make them more expensive and/or give them some more negative side effects, but please make them REAL UNTOUCHABLE.

I think its important to remember the difference in the fluff between an Untouchable and a Pariah. It'd be nice if they put some way of scaling the two together at high levels (after all if Psykers can become Alpha psykers, the next step for an Untouchable is a Pariah). Unfortunately that would go massively against the pre-existing fluff as well because its determined at a genetic level. Untouchables are carriers of the pariah gene in its recessive form, Pariahs have are fluff blown affliction so 'levelling up' into being a Pariah makes little sense.

Two words:

Pariah. Retrovirus.

They need to just make the Untouchable immune to psychic shenanigans in the same manner that they were in DH1; if anything, I'd like to see them be buffed by actually having an AoE aura, like they do in the fluff, rather than their aura just putting a -10 on a psyker's WP test.

To compensate, not only could they have their WP halved, but I think it would be interesting to throw an Untouchable malignancy chart on there that you have to roll on (or choose if the GM gives permission) at character creation, which describes how your Untouchable aura manifests itself to those around you. So on a D6 roll your character could have a turrible body odor (like Jurgen), a fear aura, an anger aura, etc, and the different malignancies can have in-game effects. For example, something like... an unpleasant odor aura bestows a bonus modifier to an enemy's test to notice you when you are sneaking or blending. A fear aura causes people around you to instinctively feel threatened by your presence. The Untouchable gains a bonus to intimidation roles, but when making charm or inquiry tests the target must first pass a willpower test, otherwise all charm and/or inquiry tests made by the Untouchable toward that target will automatically fail for 24 hours.The hatred aura bestows a massive negative modifier to any NPC's influence when they interact with the Untouchable, and all enemies have the "hatred" talent against the Untouchable when in combat.

Things like that would add a rather interesting twist to the class, and give it some life beyond just "lol I'm immune to psychic powers and no one likes me".

Honestly I think Untouchables were fairly fine in their Inquisitor's Handbook incarnation. I really feel like FFG tried to make their rules so extensive here as a means of showing off the Elite Advance system first and foremost, because it really doesn't make sense from an established lore standpoint.

What bit of fluff actually establishes a distinction between Pariah and Untouchable? I sure haven't seen it, but I've seen everyone act like it's common knowledge.

It may just be "word of mouth" between the fans? Even Lexicanum, which usually is just a subjective interpretation of how the editors think the various sources of (sometimes conflicting) fluff tie together, apparently cannot decide, with the EN article claiming there's a difference, yet listing the Sisters of Silence as an example for both categories, and the DE article flat-out states both Untouchables and Pariahs are merely different terms for the same thing.

As far as GW is concerned, I think they've never used the term Untouchable at all - if there are any differences, my money is on various novel authors applying the usual artistic license. Perhaps some have chosen to split off the "Untouchables" as a less powerful subcategory to justify making them more numerous compared to the original fluff about Pariahs ?

I actually really like the idea of the 'untouchable malignancy' table. Though I don't think it should ever be a bonus (like your example of fear aura) it should always be something that makes other characters at best uneasy, and at worst react with hatred or revulsion.

I think for 400XP the starting package in DH1 was a bit ludicrous (as someone who has played an untouchable for a relatively long campaign). However I certainly think if they're going to be included they need to be able to 'buy' their way up to that power level again and a lot of the basic things (like bonuses to deny the witch, and being undetectable by psionics) need to be reimplemented and placed VERY early in the tree, possible even at the start with the ability to increase them later.

Also, there is literally no mention about the effects of being an untouchable when confronting deamons (which is a HUGE part of why they are sought out by inquisitors). This really needs to be addressed to make the characters fit the fluff. Maybe as a separate skills tree, like psychic powers have.

"Untouchable" might actually be slang or even a nickname for that specific type of person. It was used a bunch of times in the Ravenor books.

Untouchables definitely need to be a bigger deal, it's true.

I don't think there was too much wrong with the untouchable background package in DH1. If anything there could be a smart chart to roll on to see how strong of an "untouchable" you are cause I believe untouchables have a similar rating system to psykers. Each thing on the table have varying benefits and consequences to being an untouchable from weakest to strongest.

I don't think there was too much wrong with the untouchable background package in DH1. If anything there could be a smart chart to roll on to see how strong of an "untouchable" you are cause I believe untouchables have a similar rating system to psykers. Each thing on the table have varying benefits and consequences to being an untouchable from weakest to strongest.

I like this idea however I couldn't imagine them having more than one discipline and that discipline would be that of negating or killing other psykers and warp phenomenon.

I don't think there was too much wrong with the untouchable background package in DH1. If anything there could be a smart chart to roll on to see how strong of an "untouchable" you are cause I believe untouchables have a similar rating system to psykers. Each thing on the table have varying benefits and consequences to being an untouchable from weakest to strongest.

I like this idea however I couldn't imagine them having more than one discipline and that discipline would be that of negating or killing other psykers and warp phenomenon.

This is true but surely there is evidence of untouchables with varying strengths? The table would be more or less the same abilities except depending on the roll it be weaker or stronger. Just an idea, of course.

I don't think there was too much wrong with the untouchable background package in DH1. If anything there could be a smart chart to roll on to see how strong of an "untouchable" you are cause I believe untouchables have a similar rating system to psykers. Each thing on the table have varying benefits and consequences to being an untouchable from weakest to strongest.

I agree that the Background Package from The Radical's Handbook is vastly preferable to the neutered version from the Beta . Instead of a randomized chart for Untouchable strength, though, I would prefer having the option of buying advances (possibly limited by XP requirements to represent time spent learning to master the 'anti-power').

I don't think there was too much wrong with the untouchable background package in DH1. If anything there could be a smart chart to roll on to see how strong of an "untouchable" you are cause I believe untouchables have a similar rating system to psykers. Each thing on the table have varying benefits and consequences to being an untouchable from weakest to strongest.

I agree that the Background Package from The Radical's Handbook is vastly preferable to the neutered version from the Beta . Instead of a randomized chart for Untouchable strength, though, I would prefer having the option of buying advances (possibly limited by XP requirements to represent time spent learning to master the 'anti-power').

That would be cool. I wish there were more books/information on untouchables (love the sisters of silence).

I must say the Untoucables in 2e seem...inconsistent with all previous information. Untouchables aren't graded as far as I'm aware and are more of an on/off switch. You either are an untouchable (with all that comes with it) or you are not. There is no middle ground.

I was mostly distressed to see that there are NO negative mechanics associated with being an Untouchable. The fluff for it goes to great length to discuss the social stigma associated and caused by untoucables, but then does nothing to incorporate this mechanically. Plus the anti-psyker abilities of it seem...pathetic compared to Radicals Handbook Untouchable. I would argue that this needs in fact a total re-write or removal until they can get it down appropriately. Never mind saying one per warband is reasonable. Given the intense rarity of such individuals, even meeting one (let alone having a PC) should occur only once every several campaigns.

I do quite like the Untouchable malignancy table suggested previously, that's a pretty awesome notion.

The Imperial Assignment: Negative Psionic Levels

Extending below Rho , the twenty-four point Assignment scale classifies specific levels of psychic-inactivity. While not as serious a threat as unchecked psykers, these rare individuals exhibit calming and negative effects upon the Warp .

• Sigma // Tau

• Upsilon // Phi // Chi // Psi

• Omega

• Omega-Minus

According to Lexicanum there is fluff about Untouchable grading.

A table of varying strengths may be best to define an untouchable. I haven't found anything yet on if one can train to become a "stronger" untouchable but being able to buy more traits for an untouchable seems weird. Untouchables should be stronger and have more consequences/negative effects then what is displayed in second edition.

The Imperial Assignment: Negative Psionic Levels

Extending below Rho , the twenty-four point Assignment scale classifies specific levels of psychic-inactivity. While not as serious a threat as unchecked psykers, these rare individuals exhibit calming and negative effects upon the Warp .

• Sigma // Tau

Psionically-dense individuals who are oblivious to warp fluctuations and manifestations of psychic talent.

• Upsilon // Phi // Chi // Psi

Subjects with varying degrees of immunity to psyker powers.

• Omega

Usually referred to as Untouchables , Pariahs , or Blanks . These individuals are so inert in the Warp as to actually exhibit negative psychic influence upon others. Primarily manifested as a small region of "blankness" surrounding the individual, it is impossible for psychic powers or warp creatures to penetrate this space. Those at an Omega level of psi-negativity can easily be distinguished by others, as Imperial science has shown the dead-area surrounding the subject interferes with natural electrical-mental functions. This often results in irrational fear and loathing of the individual for normal humans. For psykers , however, Omega level persons are physically and mentally painful to be near.

• Omega-Minus

Sources

• The Inquisition (Background Book) (2007) by Nick Kyme , Lindsey Priestley , and George Stirling
• Xenos (Novel) by Dan Abnett
• Malleus (Novel) by Dan Abnett
• Hereticus (Novel) by Dan Abnett
• For The Emperor (Novel) by Sandy Mitchell
• Codex: Assassins (3rd Edition)

According to Lexicanum there is fluff about Untouchable grading.

Err no, that you just copy pasted shows negative psionics with Omega level being an untouchable, thus proving the very opposite thing you are trying to say.

Untouchables are : These individuals are so inert in the Warp as to actually exhibit negative psychic influence upon others. Primarily manifested as a small region of "blankness" surrounding the individual, it is impossible for psychic powers or warp creatures to penetrate this space.

That is verbatim from the article you quoted no? so there is no grade to untouchable, you either are one or you are not.

This current iteration of them is terrible, wishy washy trying to make them "fit" well once you start trying to make everything fit, instead of accepting varying levels of power you end up with mediocre mediocrity.

I hate it when games try and make everything "equal" there is no such thing as equality, everything should be done on a scale, from weak to strong, that makes for exciting games with exciting mechanics that are fun to play.

Upsilon / Phi / Chi / Psi does state that one shows some immunity to Psyker powers. There is a whole other set of grades for regular psykers.

Visit this link: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment#.UpplT9JDtA0