The (fairly) recent Black Library novel Atlas Infernal features an 'artifact' that is really the preserved fetus of an extra-super-high-level Untouchable; it's psychic nullification is so powerful that any psyker in its presence- up to and including Grey Knights- instantly keels over dead.

Of course, it's not a very good book, and that tends to be one of the things I take into account about interpreting 'official' canon...

This has to be one of the silliest arguments I've seen on here.

The Untouchable Elite Advance does only one thing: opens up a set of talents one would otherwise be unable to select. These talents are pretty powerful and unique in that very few other characters will have access to them and they all focus on muting warp stuff.

I'm not sure what the "Untouchables are binary" crowd wants. Should anyone who takes Untouchable just automatically get all of those talents? Are the talents themselves not sufficient? Your argument is essentially that the rules of the game don't line up precisely with the admittedly self-contradictory fiction. Do you want a mechanical change or for FFG to modify the fiction of how Untouchables work?

So I looked over this link http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blank_(Psychic) and it only looks like there are only two types of "untouchables:" Blanks and Pariahs. Blanks are usually known as untouchables and are used by inquisitors to negate/suppress enemy psykers while Pariahs have the same ability AND can also live off the psychic energy of psykers (which is fatal). The weak aura of "otherness" a blank has puts off people sightly while pariahs are killed at birth because their aura is so strong.

If we focus on blanks, it seems that there is some level/hierarchy to them. "A psyker will find it difficult to impossible to affect the Blank and anyone in his general vicinity with his powers." This hints to varying levels of strength while a pariah is the bane of psykers, period.

This has to be one of the silliest arguments I've seen on here.

The Untouchable Elite Advance does only one thing: opens up a set of talents one would otherwise be unable to select. These talents are pretty powerful and unique in that very few other characters will have access to them and they all focus on muting warp stuff.

I'm not sure what the "Untouchables are binary" crowd wants. Should anyone who takes Untouchable just automatically get all of those talents? Are the talents themselves not sufficient? Your argument is essentially that the rules of the game don't line up precisely with the admittedly self-contradictory fiction. Do you want a mechanical change or for FFG to modify the fiction of how Untouchables work?

Err, I want to keep untouchables as they are in FFG's own lore and cannon, it has zip to do with what Lexicanum or some flavour of the month GW author wrote, I was merely taking advantage to point out in that quoted "fluff" that Untouchables were the end of the line in power and capability.

Original Untouchable in DH gave a potential big gain, for a big penalty, and it was a serious hindrance in a game designed around interaction and investigation, and for that big negative you got to a pure psychic blank.

So no, I do not agree that this proposed system is an improvement, it is a terrible concept as it currently stands, games should have real choices to be made, that cause real impact in the game you are playing, not this current idea of water it all down and homogenize it so everyone can be happy, because ultimately they are all the same.

Err, I want to keep untouchables as they are in FFG's own lore and cannon, it has zip to do with what Lexicanum or some flavour of the month GW author wrote, I was merely taking advantage to point out in that quoted "fluff" that Untouchables were the end of the line in power and capability.

Original Untouchable in DH gave a potential big gain, for a big penalty, and it was a serious hindrance in a game designed around interaction and investigation, and for that big negative you got to a pure psychic blank.

Reasonable.

So no, I do not agree that this proposed system is an improvement, it is a terrible concept as it currently stands, games should have real choices to be made, that cause real impact in the game you are playing, not this current idea of water it all down and homogenize it so everyone can be happy, because ultimately they are all the same.

Pointless yelling about nothing. What the hell are you even saying here? We're talking about the Untouchable Elite Advance, right? What is watered down and homogenized? Do you have any idea how ridiculous and unreasonable this paragraph makes you seem?

What specifically don't you like about the current way Untouchables work, and, more importantly, how do you think it could be done better?

Your contrarian ways are lulzy.

It's pretty obvious just by reading his posts that what he wants is for Untouchables to resemble their DH1 mechanics, meaning, complete immunity to psychic powers and some sort of penalty to their socializing abilities.

Which is a sentiment that I can agree with. Untouchables in their current configuration "don't work", not in the sense that they break the game or are unplayable, but in that it isn't accurate to the lore in any way shape or form *and Untouchable lore, unlike most 40K lore, has been pretty consistent). As well, the debuffs it gives to Psykers is so impotent that it's hardly worth fretting about. If I was playing a psyker, I certainly wouldn't sweat if I was confronted by a Psyker. At least not in mid to late game.

Untouchables should just have a flat immunity to psychic powers (bar things like being crushed by a psychicly lifted lifted piano), and in exchange should have either a flat penalty to their fellowship score or, preferably, something resembling the chart I put up on the prior page, sans the buffs perhaps. Not only would that be fluffy, but it would also add some quirkyness to the class.

It's not contrarian to say someone's incomprehensible angryposts are not helpful. And using the word 'lulz' makes me just think you're stupid.

You do, however, make some actual points. It is odd that the DH2 beta's version doesn't include anything to the effect of "you cannot be the target of or affected by psychic powers." I'm not sure I have a preference one way or the other regarding which version.

I know my preference is for the old stuff, maybe with you being able to buy control of your blank aura as that at least has been in the books (The Voice starting on page 211 of tales of heresy).

Err, I want to keep untouchables as they are in FFG's own lore and cannon, it has zip to do with what Lexicanum or some flavour of the month GW author wrote, I was merely taking advantage to point out in that quoted "fluff" that Untouchables were the end of the line in power and capability.

Original Untouchable in DH gave a potential big gain, for a big penalty, and it was a serious hindrance in a game designed around interaction and investigation, and for that big negative you got to a pure psychic blank.

Reasonable.

So no, I do not agree that this proposed system is an improvement, it is a terrible concept as it currently stands, games should have real choices to be made, that cause real impact in the game you are playing, not this current idea of water it all down and homogenize it so everyone can be happy, because ultimately they are all the same.

Pointless yelling about nothing. What the hell are you even saying here? We're talking about the Untouchable Elite Advance, right? What is watered down and homogenized? Do you have any idea how ridiculous and unreasonable this paragraph makes you seem?

What specifically don't you like about the current way Untouchables work, and, more importantly, how do you think it could be done better?

Again, err? what are you claiming to struggle to comprehend from my post?

The new idea for untouchables is bad

Is that statement clear enough this time? It doesn't do what it says on the tin, currently they are watered down to the point of pointlessness, they do not block, null or stop anything.

They need to roll it back to, you are immune, you prevent and generally make psykers loathe the very air you breath, and for that gain, you are a social pariah, people hate you and they do not even know why.

This was great, the amount of scope to actually RP with the old rules was pretty awesome, now currently the is no reason to be an untouchable, you do not stop psykers, they do not loathe you, and everyone else..well they do not notice anything else either, because you seem to be just like they are.

And everything seems to be going the same way, starting classes, racial abilitys that are pointless because they are lackluster, you cannot design an exciting game system where you try and keep everyone effectively the same, which is what they ended up doing with D&D, it went from being vibrant, amazing scope and potential to boring humdrum tedium.

There needs to be huge variance in classes, skills, talents, enemies, weaponry, armour because these are the very things that give imagination the tools to experience a unique RP experience.

I have two points to make:

1) CPS, you complain about people yelling yet you are the one ranting and calling people stupid.

2) The fluff needs to matter at least somewhat. Why? Because that's why we all like the 40K Universe. Its also what makes this game possible.

With that being said, I understand why FFG hasn't made Untouchables immune because it can be unbalancing but I'm hoping that we can find a workaround.

It is also good to note that psykers aren't the only threat and that an untouchable is still has to worry about lead, plasma, bolt rounds and so on. You can impose a penalty for being one but they still have to face threats other the psykers so he/she won't always be useful.

I have two points to make:

1) CPS, you complain about people yelling yet you are the one ranting and calling people stupid.

2) The fluff needs to matter at least somewhat. Why? Because that's why we all like the 40K Universe. Its also what makes this game possible.

With that being said, I understand why FFG hasn't made Untouchables immune because it can be unbalancing but I'm hoping that we can find a workaround.

I maintain anyone who uses the word 'lulz' in any kind of conversation is at least a little bit stupid.

I'd also like to remind everyone that this thread exists in the Game Mechanics forum. And yet, for most of this thread the argument has been about 40k's self-admittedly inconsistent fluff. You're supposed to be talking about the game's mechanics.

It's one thing to talk about changing the way the elite advance works. Something closer to Radical's Handbook, or just reworking the talents. Actual suggestions for changes to the mechanics. Some people have done so. Others, like Balenorn, post exceptionally unhelpful grognardisms. It is to posters like him I ask to make better posts.

I'm all for staying on topic but it certainly doesn't make anything better by making the conversation personal for people. All that does is create more problems.

The fluff does at times have an impact upon the game mechanics, this topic being one of them. The fluff states that Untouchables are immune to psyker powers yet the current Game Mechanics do not represent that so I think talking about the fluff in relation to the current rules is relevant.

Without the fluff there is no point in even discussing the rules. Hell the fluff is the reason why the rules exist in the first place. So lets respect that.

Secondly untouchables should be this mechanic. Something xp amount for complete immunity to all warp effects, but fellowship is considered zero which makes fellowship rolls impossible. You are immune to one thing, but completely crippled in another area. Does that sound far to all of you?

Without the fluff there is no point in even discussing the rules. Hell the fluff is the reason why the rules exist in the first place. So lets respect that.

Secondly untouchables should be this mechanic. Something xp amount for complete immunity to all warp effects, but fellowship is considered zero which makes fellowship rolls impossible. You are immune to one thing, but completely crippled in another area. Does that sound far to all of you?

That's an interesting idea. An Untouchable character would definitely be for more advanced players haha

I think zero Fel is too harsh. Isn't a PC supposed to be catatonic at zero Fel?

Perhaps a 10 Fel. I'm sure it's not impossible for an Untouchable to get things done

In the first Dark Heresy tech priest had no fellowship score and were not catatonic. They are suppose to be more welcomed by society than untouchables as well.

Tech priest didn't have zero fellowship. They didn't have advances in fellowship, but they retained their initial roll during character creation. In ascension they could even upgrade fellowship.

I'd see something like halving the initial Fel when creating the character. If you see Untouchables in the fluff many times they have friends, even loved ones. They're just A LOT more difficult to approach. The point is, upon the difficulties just for being an Untouchable, that they have a really harsh life and many develope unsympathetic personas to hide themselves behind.

I will go for a just 10 in fellowship, but we are talking about complete immunity from the warp itself. There has to be a major drawback for that and cutting fellowship in half is not enough of a drawback.

In this thread, I've seen a lot of valid fluff-related reasons for Untouchables to be completely immune to psychic powers; however, I have yet to see someone post actual results gameplay testing showing that the current system does not work. The general consensus seems to be that Untouchable powers feel weak (when compared to the fluff portrayal) but I would like to see some testing before we start drafting up replacement rules.

I plan to get my gaming group together and run some test scenarios using two parties of mid-level characters: one party will include an Acolyte with several Untouchable talents, while the other will instead have an Acolyte of equivalent XP but without Untouchable advances. These parties will attempt the same combat aganst a group of cultists led by one or more psykers and daemons. The end goal will be to determine just how powerful these Untouchable talents really are. My results will be posted here as soon as I have the data.

If anyone else would like to attempt some similar testing, I would love to see your results/impressions as well.

What if untouchables take -10 on Fellowship tests and double their DoF?

If its zero fellowship it probably should be a Pariah since they are basically culexus assassins.

I'm still yet to see any canon sources that differentiate Untouchables and Pariahs. I feel like it's basically semantics.

It's almost like it's not worth worrying about the minutiae of a fictional world when trying to write mechanics for a game.