Hello!

I would like to ask a couple of question about the subject in the title.

I run a quite happy DeathWatch campaign with the errata in place and all.

I use the Semi and Full auto rules from the BlackCrusade manual, as many GMs actually stated it make more sense, but now I'm a little confused if use or not the melee combat system:

In the black crusade Core system, the rules for the swift and lighting attacks, and so for the dodge an parry are different from DeathWatch.

In the DW Core, you have a set number of attacks you can do and ONE Dodge and ONE Parry (expection made if you are dodging autofire etc etc)

In Black Curesade Core system, the rules for the stwift and lighting attacks and even for the dodge and parry are based on the degree of success you get.

So when you attack, the lower you do and more attacks you can land and the lower your score on the dices, the more blows you can dodge or parry.

I did some quick test and the DW rule force you to throw 2-3 attacks, so are different rolls, while the BlackCrusade is more of a "one throw and finger crossed" ... kinda like all or nothing.

Any of you that tested out the combat system that can give me some suggestion on which one seems more balanced or functional?

_{The ruleset from Black crusade was refined with Only War - which is considered the latest version of the 40K ruleset.}

_{It is also found in the Dark Heresy 2.0 beta test.}

_{Overall I think that going with opposing skills are the way to go, it's infuriating to have a 5+ success attack, only to have it nullified by a one DoS Dodge/Parry.}

_{Obviously players should be careful what they wish for, since NPCs will also benefit from that change, but Deathwatch in particular is all about the Marines kicking much arse, so it makes the most sense to go with the Only War ruleset.}

_{The ruleset from Black crusade was refined with Only War - which is considered the latest version of the 40K ruleset.}

_{It is also found in the Dark Heresy 2.0 beta test.}

_{Overall I think that going with opposing skills are the way to go, it's infuriating to have a 5+ success attack, only to have it nullified by a one DoS Dodge/Parry.}

_{Obviously players should be careful what they wish for, since NPCs will also benefit from that change, but Deathwatch in particular is all about the Marines kicking much arse, so it makes the most sense to go with the Only War ruleset.}

Undestood, so I'll go read the only war rule for this matter.

Also another quick question: in DeathWatch when you make a standard attack, you roll on you WS or BS, but in Black Crusade, for example the base attack has a +10.

Does the only war address that as well?

I mean the assault marine in my party has already 70WS. He the basic attack is +10 he is already at 80, got forbid if he catch someone by charging or using the hatred talent

In OW attacks actions are:

Standard attack = +10

Swift/Semiauto = +0, 1 extra hit per 2 Degrees of Success

Lightning/Full Auto = -10, 1 extra hit per 1 Degree of Success

Charge +20(+10 from standard attack is already counted)

All-Out Attack +30 (can't dodge or parry)

Also bear in mind that in BC/OW your Weapon Skill Bonus (tens digit) caps how many times you can hit per Swift/Lightning attack action.

In OW attacks actions are:

Standard attack = +10

Swift/Semiauto = +0, 1 extra hit per 2 Degrees of Success

Lightning/Full Auto = -10, 1 extra hit per 1 Degree of Success

Charge +20(+10 from standard attack is already counted)

All-Out Attack +30 (can't dodge or parry)

Also bear in mind that in BC/OW your Weapon Skill Bonus (tens digit) caps how many times you can hit per Swift/Lightning attack action.

Thanks for the infos.

I just ordered an OW copy from Amazon, just in case I need more stuff

I will test out this new rules set in the next DeathWatch game, the marines are going to fight some Dark Eldars

All-Out Attack +30 (can't dodge or parry)

Clarification: The attacker cannot dodge or parry until his next turn. Defender can try to if he wants (unless the attacker used the Killing Strike talent).

All-Out Attack +30 (can't dodge or parry)

Clarification: The attacker cannot dodge or parry until his next turn. Defender can try to if he wants (unless the attacker used the Killing Strike talent).

Thanks for correcting. Thats what I meant.

In OW attacks actions are:

Standard attack = +10

Swift/Semiauto = +0, 1 extra hit per 2 Degrees of Success

Lightning/Full Auto = -10, 1 extra hit per 1 Degree of Success

Charge +20(+10 from standard attack is already counted)

All-Out Attack +30 (can't dodge or parry)

Also bear in mind that in BC/OW your Weapon Skill Bonus (tens digit) caps how many times you can hit per Swift/Lightning attack action.

Also I would like to ask a quick clarification:

In DeathWatch the Swift/lighting attack is a full action, while in OnlyWar and black crusade is an half action. Isn't that a little too much overpowering?

Not really - since you can't make a second attack-type action, all you can really use that other half action for is to aim (which, since multi-attack actions come with a to-hit penalty is fair enough).

Barring feint/acrobatics type shenannigans, anyway.

The main difference was that it lets you use them on a charge.

Not really - since you can't make a second attack-type action, all you can really use that other half action for is to aim (which, since multi-attack actions come with a to-hit penalty is fair enough).

Barring feint/acrobatics type shenannigans, anyway.

The main difference was that it lets you use them on a charge.

I see.

I guess I'm a little to used to the old DeathWatch rules and I've to adapt a little to the Only War thingy

Thanks for the support guys!

No, not any more. They Errated that you just make Standard attack with Charge. So no more Swift/Lightning attack Charge combo.

Two-weapon Fighting has changed though.

No more just 3 main hand and 1 off hand attack. You can make Lightning attack with both weapons.

Also this

@ Magnus Grendel

Two-weapon Fighting has changed though.

No more just 3 main hand and 1 off hand attack. You can make Lightning attack with both weapons.

Can you clarify on this one please?

If an assault marine has 2 lighting claw, ws 70 and let's say he scores a solid 3 degrees, doesn't he get 3 main attacks and has to roll for the "offhand" attack again?

Sorry didn't have my books with me so had to use what I remembered. And might have left some parts off.

In Deathwatch Switf/Lightning Attack was Talent . So you could only gain the Swift/Lightning Attack, when wielding two melee weapons , with one (1) of them . So wielding Lightning Claws you could only gain max 3 attacks with other. So Maximum hits you could get was 4.

Now as they ( Swift/Lightning attack ) are actions you can choose to use Standard/Swift/Lightning attack with both of them.

And you just make one roll and count your DoS to see how many times you hit. So wielding two lightning claws you could get with your WS 70 Assault total of 14 hits. Not rolling a separate rolls to see how many hit and them see if they made any damage.

Well this max 14 hits is my interpretation of this rule as it only says "Success indicates he has hit his target with his melee weapon once for every DoS." So you could say that attacking with two weapons you could gain 7 hits twice.

But don't take my word for granted I might be wrong.

Ok, so my rank 3 assault marine with lightning attack and two weapon (melee) can lighting attack with both hands as a half action? That's lots of potential hits. Those are really the only war rules?

Ok, so my rank 3 assault marine with lightning attack and two weapon (melee) can lighting attack with both hands as a half action? That's lots of potential hits. Those are really the only war rules?

Correct

But bear in mind that you do have a -10 WS for the lighting attack and -10ws for the secondary weapon

Ok, so my rank 3 assault marine with lightning attack and two weapon (melee) can lighting attack with both hands as a half action? That's lots of potential hits. Those are really the only war rules?

Correct

But bear in mind that you do have a -10 WS for the lighting attack and -10ws for the secondary weapon

even so with an 80 base ws and +10 for hunter of xenos plus some some bonuses for hatred, master quality weapons, double team, oath of knowlege and other such things the targets are going to go down quckly.

Ok, so my rank 3 assault marine with lightning attack and two weapon (melee) can lighting attack with both hands as a half action? That's lots of potential hits. Those are really the only war rules?

Correct

But bear in mind that you do have a -10 WS for the lighting attack and -10ws for the secondary weapon

even so with an 80 base ws and +10 for hunter of xenos plus some some bonuses for hatred, master quality weapons, double team, oath of knowlege and other such things the targets are going to go down quckly.

Yes but bear in mind that now parry and dodge works in the same way as well.

So let's say you score a nice 7 hits?

If the enemy scores a 6 degree dodge or parry, only one hit slide in, and you still have armour and toughness.

Trust me I've been Mastering a DeathWatch campaing and I've migrated from the DW Core to the one used in OnlyWar. It works.

Just remember one thing: As a Marine you are strong ofcourse but a good GameMaster need to balance your opponents as well.

Yeah, I have ported the OW rules and never looked back.