Welcome to real combat.

Pinning is not a way to kill the enemy but to protect yourself. So if the enemy is pinning over and over, he's not killing you. Since you're behind cover all the time. So why is he bothering? He should be trying to _flush you out of cover_, not _force you into it._

"as this takes quite a bit of ammo"

Actualy by RAW you can Pin people with 2 laspistol shots a round.

true that i already assumed houserules being in play

its so sad that i always forget about it

**** bogi_khaosa, what's it with you and hitting nails on the head?

The "flushing from cover" not "force into cover" bit is something I totally didn't notice until now and that would be REALLY important.
Is there any way in the rules to force that though?

My intellect is as vast as the universe itself.

This is what Blast and Spray weapons are for, no? They get past the cover, an to Dodge them you often have to leap out of cover.

So Flamers, 'cause grenades don't do any damage. (I have mentioned it before, but it bears repeating: I've survived two grenades with NO damage. 2d10 vs 10 Soak is not gonna cut it.)

Let me check those stats quickly...
20m max range, that's okay. 1d10+4E Pen 2? We~ell, not gonna do much, but the follow-up could be nasty. Of course, it essentially takes that character out, which is nice.
It doesn't really force people out of cover, unless they make the dodge, but it's great while you're pinned, since it doesn't need BS and thus no aiming or anything.

So Flamers, 'cause grenades don't do any damage. (I have mentioned it before, but it bears repeating: I've survived two grenades with NO damage. 2d10 vs 10 Soak is not gonna cut it.)

Let me check those stats quickly...

20m max range, that's okay. 1d10+4E Pen 2? We~ell, not gonna do much, but the follow-up could be nasty. Of course, it essentially takes that character out, which is nice.

It doesn't really force people out of cover, unless they make the dodge, but it's great while you're pinned, since it doesn't need BS and thus no aiming or anything.

If they keep throwing grenades, eventually somebody is going to roll 17, 18, 19, 20 and that will really hurt, especially if one of those is a 10.

Mortars.

The follow-up for flame is very nasty. Unless you have really good WP you;re pretty much dead, And it will affect many people at once, note.

Plus it might set the cover on fire.

Now, I may be wrong - it has happened once or twice this Century already

But "Also, I'm supposed to be the NCO in charge (the Sarge) and my buff abilities rely on me taking full actions, which I can't take. Nor can I charge ." - per RAW, you can only do one sweeping order per turn, but it is not a full action to make, in all Groups I've ever been in both online and around a table such actions has always been free actions.

Prehaps your GM (And Thus the commanding officer that oversaw all those battles) should decide that due to the training battles your squad has been in, the Sarge should be given training in the sweeping order "Snap Out of It!". (Prehaps as a bonus, or by giving a Little XP that is deadlocked to that order)

There's also the consideration of getting +30 to the roll if you are behind cover (Page 255 in the core OW book). The average guardsmen would have somewhere along the lines of 30WP, which would give your team a 60% chance each round to get out of it and act normally - which isn't half bad (Unless you play with bogi_khaosa who always manages to roll 80+ on the dice )

spray weapons only work if the target is at least partially visible, so sometimes thats not gonna work but indeed blast weapons of the beafier kind hurt

a frag missile is actually massivly nasty even for you, 2d10+2 pen2 blast 5, since it will do 11dmg pen 2 on average in a 5m radius most likly hitting more than 1 of you

Okay, yes, the "Get them!" order that I have is a free action, true. But Inspire is a Full Action until I get a Tier 2 or 3 Talent to reduce it to a Half Action. And I keep rolling 70+ for them, anyway -.-
Snap out of it is only for comrades and the bonus for being in cover only applies to getting out of it, at the end of my turn, just before my enemy can pin me again.

Well, if he is completely invisible, shouldn't he be unable to shoot at me either?

Yeah, being pinned down while someone has got big guns is nasty, but it's an option that is only available to the ones doing the pinning. And pinning is still massively too easy to do, if you've got the numerical advantage (skill doesn't matter!).

And actually: 11dmg pen 2 is 3 points of damage for me. Yes, alright, I should've thought about that before going for best-quality armour, but still, I'm starting to think TB is too good and Pen too uncommon...

Okay, yes, the "Get them!" order that I have is a free action, true. But Inspire is a Full Action until I get a Tier 2 or 3 Talent to reduce it to a Half Action. And I keep rolling 70+ for them, anyway -.-

Snap out of it is only for comrades and the bonus for being in cover only applies to getting out of it, at the end of my turn, just before my enemy can pin me again.

Well, if he is completely invisible, shouldn't he be unable to shoot at me either?

Yeah, being pinned down while someone has got big guns is nasty, but it's an option that is only available to the ones doing the pinning. And pinning is still massively too easy to do, if you've got the numerical advantage (skill doesn't matter!).

And actually: 11dmg pen 2 is 3 points of damage for me. Yes, alright, I should've thought about that before going for best-quality armour, but still, I'm starting to think TB is too good and Pen too uncommon...

This is never explicity stated, but I'm pretty sure that Inspire doesn't work on PCs (or Comrades. Well maybe Comrades if they're doing some independetnt thing.).

Who, if not PCs? Comrades doesn't make sense, as you say, since they don't really roll for anything.
There is no Follower mechanic as there used to be in Dark Heresy (as I understand), so Inspire wouldn't seem to affect anyone. The Commander even gains Heroic Inspiration and the talent Stirring Rhetoric mentions affecting characters.

On the other hand, for Terrify it's mentioned in the Commissar's Galvanizing Presence: Without this talent, Terrify doesn't affect PCs. Air of Authority only ever affects NPCs, as stated in the description.

So what, the Sergeant is entirely useless to the squad unless there are a lot of NPCs he can boss around? What if it's just one squad, no NPCs?
Inspire - useless, doesn't affect anyone
Terrify - useless, since the sarge is no Commissar it doesn't affect anyone
Snap out of it! - meh, getting the comrades out of pinning is pointless while the PCs are pinned and RAW they will be pinned
Get them! - Nice, +4 damage for a +0 test. Starts out at ~50% chance, most likely. It's a neat buff.
Covering Fire - the only reliable order as it requires no test, +10 to Dodge is cool, but also not exactly amazing

And what would he need Air of Authority for? To take over the regiment when the officers die?

Who, if not PCs? Comrades doesn't make sense, as you say, since they don't really roll for anything.

There is no Follower mechanic as there used to be in Dark Heresy (as I understand), so Inspire wouldn't seem to affect anyone. The Commander even gains Heroic Inspiration and the talent Stirring Rhetoric mentions affecting characters.

On the other hand, for Terrify it's mentioned in the Commissar's Galvanizing Presence: Without this talent, Terrify doesn't affect PCs. Air of Authority only ever affects NPCs, as stated in the description.

Without looking at the book, going by memory, Inspire and Terrify are both described as affecting "followers." Then, the Commie's special ability says that it allows him to "affect PCs," from which we can conclude that followers are not PCs.

I don't know why the Sergeant is getting mentioned specifically here, since anyone with Command can use Inspire. Since "follower" is not defined, it could also be the Priest or Commissar, or anybody happening to lead the squad that day.

Snap Out of It is very important because Comrades, when Pinned, will stay pinned until the combat is over unless given an order not to be (that is, Snap Out of It)*. Don't extrapolate your experience here too much -- I have never seen a combat where one side tries to Pin another over and over again round after round.

As to who it works on -- NPCs. Such as the hundred or so Guardsmen you have to deal with at the beginning of Final Testament, after their commanding officers die in fact . It's not always just your squad.

Air of Authority increases the range at which Orders can be given -- albeit I don't know if that range is even specified in the book anywhere. I can't find it, if so.

*For that matter, unless you have a Talent that says otherwise, a Comrade suffering from Fear will run away and is effectively dead.

BTW a +10 to Dodge is more significant than it sounds, due to the degrees of success mechanic.

True, it affects those too, but they seem to be better at fighting than the sarge and the priest gets abilities that do benefit the players. Plus I play a sarge, so that's the class I thought I knew best.

That may be true, but it just makes me ask: Why on earth not?
When would you not want your enemy pinned? What enemy (apart from Orks and Khorne Berserkers, oh and 'nids) is not gonna try and pin you?
Especially with RAW, I'd be extremly irritated by any human who doesn't try to keep his enemy pinned, as it greatly improves their chances of survival. Tau would pin too, same basic idea; Eldar might not, they're fast enough to shoot you in the back even if you don't stay put. Necrons... Dunno, but you'd be dead either way.


No, the range is not really defined. What's the micro-bead good for then?
I (and my group) always went with something like this:
10m is basic voice range, past that you can't convey any effects. You might get an order across, as in "shoot that guy" but nothing with any special effects.
Air of Authority gives you a carrying voice and all that, increasing the range.
Micro-Beads mean that no noise can get in the way, and that as long as there is line of sight, you can even get a range of ~500m. Like a walkie-talkie, in essence. Air of Authority doesn't apply, though. This range increase is independent. However you can also never improve the amount of people you can inspire, since signal quality degrades (or something like that).

Vox-caster is a big backpack radio. This gives you 2-3, on a good day or in a good position maybe even more, KILO-meters of range. Of course, that depends on people having vox-casters or micro-beads themselves.

Oh and micro-beads are not just for the sergeants, priests and commissars, everyone can use them to just communicate.

i was more talking about the enemy flaming your pinned sorry-ass while you cant effectivly fight back

like i said, from what you discribe they should just wipe you out in a few turns easily by using lasgun settings

Ah. Yes, that and careful aim should totally wipe us out.

I must admit I've only ever used it in Full-Auto weapons (force of habit - I've played all the FFG RPGs, which means I run into the ever-present problem that I miss the tweaks to the rules between versions).

I have to say semi-automatic suppressing fire feels wrong (unless, narratively, it's from a ton of dudes). It also kind of makes the Weapons Specialist advance which lets your comrade add pinning to your shooting somewhat redundant... which would be a shame, because as I see it a weapons specialist with a lasgun should be almost the 'default' guardsman PC.

well the specialist advance lets you use a normal shot with way higher chance of hitting with added suppression at a lower chance

yeah semi suppression is kinda weird if its unlimited by shot count

Being able to communicate does not equate to being able to be inspired enough to have a sweeping order take effect.

Anyway, yeah maybe I can see the vox order in this case being used when the squad is split up.

yeah semi suppression is kinda weird if its unlimited by shot count

I get why it might have been added - the 'other' mostly combat version is Deathwatch, and (at least at the point where the game was released) every marine could lay down suppressing fire (it's only the errata which reined in the truly ridiculous Godwyn-pattern Bolter). There might have been a desire to allow anyone with a lasgun to lay down suppressing fire.

Personally, I think the game works fine without it - and it makes the heavy gunner special (even if he just has a heavy stubber), makes the Weapons Specialist talent very useful, and means that there is a real reason to consider giving up the awesomeness of overcharged lasguns in favour of autoguns as a regimental weapon.

It was added, I am pretty sure, to make it possible to do SF with a lasgun.

The WS specialist talent is very useful, because you actually have a decent chance to hit and get mulriple hits on one target. And it does not affect every target in a gigantic kill zone.

Actually it will let you Pin with single shots, grenades, thrown knives (!), what have you.

Heavy gunners are the only way you can reproduce the old OP nature of full-auto weapons, with the Stabilize ability any gunner with a FA weapon is going to get.

Actually it will let you Pin with single shots, grenades, thrown knives (!), what have you.

Suppressing Fire can pin a maximum number of characters equal to the rounds of ammunition shot. The shooter nominates the primary target he wishes to suppress, the additional targets suppressed are the ones closest to the primary target (considering line of sight, friendly-fire does apply).

The limitations of a maximum 45° cone of suppression applies to normal range, long range limits the cone to 30° while extreme range limits it to 15°.

this is copied from our houserules, it limits suppressing fire

also we automatically included the +30 bonus from being in cover to the initial pinning test (making a semi suppression +20 and a full supression +10)

hope that give some inspiration

Stealing the sh;t out of this.

Suppressing Fire is working as intended, I think. Get Orks into the mix and watch them not give a ****, though.

Terrify is intended to work on PC's, I'm fairly certain. I know you could use it on other PCs in Black Crusade. Not that it's particularly amazing - Frenzon is a much better deal.

Yeah, buddy. Mob Rule looks at suppressing fire and LOLs in its face.