What an impact !

Big news on the page and the forum is running wild.

The battlefield has definitely seen a lot of motion in the last 24h and is not going to be calm within the next time.

For some the news were shocking, for some they were a sign that the emperor on the golden throne was still alive, for some it was a power-fists punch in the face.

I count myself to the last group of powerfisted, yet I can very well understand the need to stay somehow in line with the other systems so far.

So what to do now, is the big question.

A total overhaul is not wanted - but an OW 1.1 Inquisitors Edition probably also won't do the job, as this would not be much more than stuff that already exists more or less for free...

My personal wish now would be to integrate some of the better ideas of the new approaches into existing mechanisms as smooth as possible, and scrap those concepts that dont really work.

So I would favour to try to integrate the AP system into the old rules (as said in another place, this can be done by exchanging half actions against 1 or 2 AP - there can be more exact balancing now; full actions would be 3-4, a reaction 1) and use the new wound tables instead of general wound hit point systems (this would also allow the new novice/elite/master approach to work as defined, with 2 wounds killing a mook or a crit wound killing an elite - quite a goood rule for smooth and cool playing).

Yeah, I know, the AP system yet is not as perfect as it could be - but thats what this beta can be used for. I really think it is the right step to more tactical combat, which allows to differentiate better between different kind of actions and strategies.

Afterwards: scrap the new RoF rules. I liked them somehow, but too many in this forums did not, so scrap them.

Keep the S/-/- style approach, but think about also integrating this approach into melee weapons to haver slower and faster ones.

Fatigue could be switched easily to the new approach and would be much better in my oppinion.

Letting the skills bundled as currently in the beta should not create too much problems.

Talent trees - scrap them and use the OW Tier system - much better.

Psyker power trees - scrap them - same as with talent trees - too restrictive.

Think about somehow using the new psyker system but scale the powers much better than currently.

A lot of the other stuff is minor and would not be a big deal to integrate or not integrtae in my eyes.

Only my 2,17$ on this issue, and the hope for a solution in between that does not ignore any of the 2 sides (traditionalists and progressive) totally.

Did you really need to make a new thread for this when there's already like 3 other threads discussing the announcement?

I can't see what's the problem with the new RoF system. You can decide between shooting more bullets which comes with sacrificed accuracy (no ap for aiming), or just shoot 2 or 4 bullets (in the case of an autogun), but those will be more accurate (1-2 ap aiming)

The case with 1/2 RoF weapons would need an update: I'm currently sticking with a houserule which makes shooting with slow-fire weapons 1 AP, and after that you need to wait another 1 AP before firing the weapon again (whether one can spend this 1 AP on other actions is up to the GM; he should use common sense: aiming while a plasma pistol is overheated, OK; aiming after a hand cannon's recoil pushed your arm above your head, NOT OK)

It's obvious that there are still problems with the beta, but I dont think the solution to this is throwing everything out, IMO with some updates this could have been made perfect (yes, there is a bit more bookkeeping, but I can sacrifice 1-2 seconds to have a game which feels realistic)

The wound system was basically changed into a more detailed version, which still uses hit points (+5/+10), but it is a dream come true for me, since with a little modification I could make it into a version which is hit point free (I have been waiting for a system like this in years, the HP system feels so terrible, this is a tabletop roleplaying game for Christ's sake, not a PC game where you are only in danger after you get hit 10 times), and it treats conditions which would affect a real life combat, like burning, bleeding out, etc. My modification is really simple:

I completely deleted hit points, so no +5/+10 from previous hits. For shots hitting the limbs, there is a +15 modifier, for shots hitting the body, its +17, and for the head its +20. Also, there is no outright death from amputated limbs, just VERY dangerous bleeding.

If an internal organ is destroyed, the GM/Player must roll 1d7 to decide which major organ got hit, and if it's the hearth... Then only a toughness test with negative modifiers can save the unlucky guy (note that it is possible to survive a shot in the hearth IRL if it is treated quickly enough, however it is rare, thus the negative modifier)

With this system characters without armor can easily die from autoguns, but a body armor can protect them. I also like the fact that they don't die because they ran out of magical wound points like in the pre-DH2 systems (they could shake off 3 shots without any negative effects, but the fourth would kill them outright), but because they got hit 1-2 times in the body and they are bleeding out.

This can be stopped however if a proper medic is around. Speaking of medics, I also use a house rule for bleeding: you can't decrease it by one if you dont make a succesful first aid test first. However this should be with positive modifiers if the character has the medicae skill: a tough guy who is trained in first aid can treat shot wounds after all.

Reality maniacs like me can use different modifiers depending on the type of the shot (rending being harder than impact), whether the character is treating himself or someone else, etc.

Needless to say, no human will walk like a boss after getting shot with a bolter... (in Dark Heresy 1, there is a human character in our party who can survive 4 AVERAGE bolter shots (tearing included) to the head while being completely unarmored (or even NAKED!) without any negative effects. This is not worthy of 40k.

I realise that for some people ultimate realism is not the goal, so I did not write this post to start an argument, but rather to share this with anyone interested.

Did you really need to make a new thread for this when there's already like 3 other threads discussing the announcement?

Considering this is just GauntZero's wish list I say let him have at it. There is no harm in that.

Did you really need to make a new thread for this when there's already like 3 other threads discussing the announcement?

I didnt need to.

But I thought it would be a great gift to the world to share some of my thoughts ;D

I would like to see OW tier system, but I'd like to see a different version. Probably one where things you have no aptitudes for can't be gotten at all, and where you start with a smaller amount of aptitudes, but as you level up you get to choose new ones(and preferably not completely freely, it would depend on your role).

I also like the aptitude concept in general.

I would like to have a system where you need, lets say 2 Tier 1 talents to be able to buy 1 Tier2 Talent, and the same with 2 needed Tier2's for 1 Tier3.

Just a thought though...

I would like to have a system where you need, lets say 2 Tier 1 talents to be able to buy 1 Tier2 Talent, and the same with 2 needed Tier2's for 1 Tier3.

Just a thought though...

This is a hidden tax on higher tier talents.

Say tier 1 costs 200xp, tier 2 costs 400 and tier 3 costs 600. To get a tier 3 talent, you need to get two tier 2 talents, which in turn require four tier 1 talents. (4 x 200) + (2 x 400) + 600 = 2,200xp, all so somebody can get one tier 3 talent. Sure, you get the effects of the other talents you've bought, but how is this different to being forced to take a talent through the talent trees?

I say keep talent prerequisites pretty much as they are in BC/OW. Some talents will have other, logical talents as prereqs, some will have skills, others will have characteristics, some may even have a combination.

The talent trees were a good idea in theory, but ultimately too limiting in a system that seems to want to encourage free-form character development.

As you get something for your spent xp, it is not directly a tax, more a prerequisite.

Yes, it somehow is indirectly like the trees, BUT it is more flexible, as you can chose the lower tier talents yourself, which means you can take some that match your character better.

Was just a thought though - I could also life totally treeless here.

I would like to have a system where you need, lets say 2 Tier 1 talents to be able to buy 1 Tier2 Talent, and the same with 2 needed Tier2's for 1 Tier3.

Just a thought though...

This is a hidden tax on higher tier talents.

Say tier 1 costs 200xp, tier 2 costs 400 and tier 3 costs 600. To get a tier 3 talent, you need to get two tier 2 talents, which in turn require four tier 1 talents. (4 x 200) + (2 x 400) + 600 = 2,200xp, all so somebody can get one tier 3 talent. Sure, you get the effects of the other talents you've bought, but how is this different to being forced to take a talent through the talent trees?

I say keep talent prerequisites pretty much as they are in BC/OW. Some talents will have other, logical talents as prereqs, some will have skills, others will have characteristics, some may even have a combination.

The talent trees were a good idea in theory, but ultimately too limiting in a system that seems to want to encourage free-form character development.

What it does is making the system easier for new players. You don't need to have an overview of all talents - you just need to know that you want something to do with Ranged combat, and you need to take one of these five Tier 1 talents to get started. You get eased into it.

It's a much more flexible system than prerequisites (which I would remove, at least in most cases). It's essentially a broader tree where every branch crosses.

I don't see a problem with talent trees as long as they are balanced and make sense. For instance there could be talent trees based on the role. There could be a tree for:

Heavy Weapons

Demolitions

Lore

Coercion

Psyker Powers (but more balanced than last iteration)

Stealth, sneak attacks, etc

Melee Fighting

Unarmed Fighting

The real key is to make each talent in the tree worth having so that you don't feel like you have to buy crap talents to get to the one that you really want. It's a tall order but would be kinda cool in theory.