If I understand things right, Subtlety is a campaign-long stat for the group.

Every time the party changes locations to somewhere where they aren't known, the Subtlety stat "normalizes" 2d10 toward 50, with the option for some GM fiat.

Does that make sense? Shouldn't Subtlety start at 100 on a planet where they aren't known? It might dive quickly, but why would it be 50/50 if they're brand new on a world, with no random factor?

Further, it doesn't seem that Subtlety does the 2d10 change when travelling to a known world. But if Subtlety is a permanent stat, that means that you can effectively alter your Subtlety on a known world by travelling around for a while. I guess people forget over time, but it still seems weird.

I get that it makes sense in some cases for Subtlety to carry over from place to place, but in some cases it also seems really odd (my case was the adventure in the book, Seeds of Heresy, which had no contact with the Imperium for 25 years, but somehow still affects [and is affected by] the Subtlety of the group).

So the group announces that they're Inquisition on one world. Why does that alert hive gangs on a world on the opposite side of the sector to any degree at all? Maybe they've heard that there's Inquisition agents at work somewhere in the sector, but one would assume that there's always some Inquisition agents at work somewhere in the sector. It shouldn't alarm every gang on ever planet, should it?

Should there maybe be a blurb about "isolating" a separate Subtlety rating for special cases where there's no chance of communication? Or should Subtlety be completely separate for every world the acolytes visits?

Is this a problem or am I just misunderstanding things?

Maybe it is not only a question IF people know that the acolytes are there, but also if they have gotten a reason for this.

If someone new comes, this may be suspective at first, but if they tell a good cover story and life by it, people might start to ignore the newcomers, which improves their subtlety.

I also see it as new people, especially new people who seem to be independent agents rather than having a slot in society to fit into, raising suspicion, which abates if they then establish themselves and keep low profile.

There's also plenty of room for interplanetary traffic to spread rumors and such, or Astropathic messages, or whatever.

Also, how does the group arrive on-planet? Aboard a Black Ship via Thunderhawki? On a tramp freighter as hidden stowaways who manage to sneak off successfully? That kind of thing would radically influence subtlety.

Keep in mind that subtlety isn't a measure of how Joe Citizen perceives the warband. Anyone who's going to be interested in the players' actions is probably going to have their own channels of information. A sector-wide heretical cult might disseminate the warband's description across its planetary factions; an Arbites judge might send a report to a Marshal on another planet.

If your warband was going to or coming from a world with little contact with the rest of the Imperium (Novabella in Seeds of Heresy is a good example), it might make sense to run a separate Subtlety track, although the book states that the starting Subtlety is 50.

Yes, I'd track subtlety seperately where a location is out of contact (or at least communication is limited). Equally, travelling helps - not that people forget you, but they may lose track of you and if you make a point of coming back into town quietly, they may not realise (for a bit).

Equally, starting subtlety is 50 if you've done nothing to try and improve it. A group of armed, unknown individuals turning up in town attracts some minimum level of attention even if you've no reason to assume they're Ordo agents. Equally, subtlety should be easy to improve over time if you don't do anything to draw attention to yourself.

However, the manner of your arrival should be your first and one of your easiest ways to change subtlety. I see the stat as being a sliding scale, defining what the acolyte's chief weapons are at any given moment:

100 - - - - - - - - - - - 50 - - - - - - - - - 0

Surprise - - - Ruthless Efficiency - - - Fear

100 - - - - - - - - - - - 50 - - - - - - - - - 0

Surprise - - - Ruthless Efficiency - - - Fear

And an almost fanatical devotion to the Emperor?

100 - - - - - - - - - - - 50 - - - - - - - - - 0

Surprise - - - Ruthless Efficiency - - - Fear

This description have to be added into the rulebook!

I'd really like to see the current table of subtlety values replaced by something like this along with mechanical effects. Why add mechanical effects? Because subtlety is tracked as a mechanic in fine detail. Why lose the current table? Because it doesn't actually jive with the current rules; the table gives examples of what character actions look like at each subtlety level but the problem is that character actions determine subtlety, and typically change it in small ways, which means the table will likely not reflect how the characters are actually acting. It's basically a useless table mechanically, and because of this it is useless narratively. However, the main problem with mechanical effects is that they must be hidden from players in order to keep subtlety secret. I think this can be reflected by bonuses and penalties to NPC rolls. Low subtlety means better equipped combat NPCs and high subtlety means NPCs not being easily intimidated but more easily lied to. Stuff like that.

I'd really like to see the current table of subtlety values replaced by something like this along with mechanical effects. Why add mechanical effects? Because subtlety is tracked as a mechanic in fine detail. Why lose the current table? Because it doesn't actually jive with the current rules; the table gives examples of what character actions look like at each subtlety level but the problem is that character actions determine subtlety, and typically change it in small ways, which means the table will likely not reflect how the characters are actually acting. It's basically a useless table mechanically, and because of this it is useless narratively. However, the main problem with mechanical effects is that they must be hidden from players in order to keep subtlety secret. I think this can be reflected by bonuses and penalties to NPC rolls. Low subtlety means better equipped combat NPCs and high subtlety means NPCs not being easily intimidated but more easily lied to. Stuff like that.

I agree. According to the current table, a Subtlety of 100 means the warband is neither seen nor heard, yet it is entirely plausible they could be acting in plain sight but just be very good at pretending to be something else, and still attain 100 Subtlety.

I definitely like the concept of subtlety, not sure their implementation is the most useful way to go about it and I agree with many of the criticisms, but I want this system to exist and work well.

I myself have been using it as a rule of thumb for how many guards might be around, how armed and alert enemies will be, the size of patrols, how suspicious gangers are, how trigger happy local enforcers might be, and other factors that are difficult to enumerate on a universally usable table. In some ways, I think subtlety just has to be used as a gauge rather than a hard and fast set of rules if it is going to feel right.

I definitely move the subtlety meter around more. If the PCs flash plasma weapons where they are not commonplace (so, most everywhere) they automatically lose subtlety. If they sue them to destroy some folks but there are no witnesses and they destroy the obvious evidence of how the bodies were made I might not penalize them as much, since a couple of mutants going missing is way less notable than a couple of mutants getting cut down by plasma fire down on sublevel 23 near the manufactorum hab-block.

Plausible cover stories, armour that does not stand out, not flashing unusual levels of technology for their context, even appropriate clothing, behaviour, disguise use, really anything can apply. I change Subtlety for pretty much everything, keeping a constant fluctuation going rather than looking for the specific cases in question and rolling changes to it only then.

Well subtlety definitely puts an end to Acolytes rolling into town with an MP Lascannon in hand!

Unless you don't care about subtlety.

Unless you don't care about subtlety.

Of course a party can do that, but presumably their investigation will be all the harder, the collateral damage greater, and their influence gain might actually suffer as a result of wasted resources and snubbed allies. That said, I welcome that the system allows for this style of play or even a movement back and forth between them as suits the task at hand.

Should PCs seek to be brazen they can expect enemies to set traps and ambushes, to hire extra muscle, to make desperate preparations or even foolish pacts in order to hold off the impending doom that is represented by such a obvious threat as this well armed warband.

The end result of which is that the subtle approach may leave you short heavy firepower, but you will need it less, and the unsubtle approach may give you an abundance of killy tools but also a considerable need for them.

The Almost Fanatical Devotion to the God-Emperor is assumed (possibly incorrectly, depending on the acolytes in question! ) at all times .

I'd really like to see the current table of subtlety values replaced by something like this along with mechanical effects. Why add mechanical effects? Because subtlety is tracked as a mechanic in fine detail. Why lose the current table? Because it doesn't actually jive with the current rules; the table gives examples of what character actions look like at each subtlety level but the problem is that character actions determine subtlety, and typically change it in small ways, which means the table will likely not reflect how the characters are actually acting. It's basically a useless table mechanically, and because of this it is useless narratively. However, the main problem with mechanical effects is that they must be hidden from players in order to keep subtlety secret. I think this can be reflected by bonuses and penalties to NPC rolls. Low subtlety means better equipped combat NPCs and high subtlety means NPCs not being easily intimidated but more easily lied to. Stuff like that.

Agreed. This was how I initially read it - that the GM should set and track subtlety without players specifically knowing what it is, using the descriptions as a guide. You can't really come up with definitive rules beyond the GM's opinion, because it's all driven by the acolytes having a cunning plan

And yes, benefits and penalties to pairs of skills, such as intimidate/deceive and acquisition/requisition, as well as suggested increases to threat ratings of encounters (but also the acoltyes access to supporting minions).

I have never had a problem with the players rocking up into town with a man-portable lascannon, powered plate and stormtrooper bodyguard, provided they understand and accept that the response of every criminal in the region (whether connected to the investigation or not) will be "It's the Inquisition! Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap!!!!! " and their chances of 'picking up rumours in a bar' are essentially zero.

Unless you don't care about subtlety.

Of course a party can do that, but presumably their investigation will be all the harder, the collateral damage greater, and their influence gain might actually suffer as a result of wasted resources and snubbed allies. That said, I welcome that the system allows for this style of play or even a movement back and forth between them as suits the task at hand.

Should PCs seek to be brazen they can expect enemies to set traps and ambushes, to hire extra muscle, to make desperate preparations or even foolish pacts in order to hold off the impending doom that is represented by such a obvious threat as this well armed warband.

The end result of which is that the subtle approach may leave you short heavy firepower, but you will need it less, and the unsubtle approach may give you an abundance of killy tools but also a considerable need for them.

So ultimately no matter what option you pick its not a big deal because your not going to arbitrary screw over your players. Its just a fluff gameplay style thing they decided to add mechanics on.

Unless you don't care about subtlety.

Of course a party can do that, but presumably their investigation will be all the harder, the collateral damage greater, and their influence gain might actually suffer as a result of wasted resources and snubbed allies. That said, I welcome that the system allows for this style of play or even a movement back and forth between them as suits the task at hand.

Should PCs seek to be brazen they can expect enemies to set traps and ambushes, to hire extra muscle, to make desperate preparations or even foolish pacts in order to hold off the impending doom that is represented by such a obvious threat as this well armed warband.

The end result of which is that the subtle approach may leave you short heavy firepower, but you will need it less, and the unsubtle approach may give you an abundance of killy tools but also a considerable need for them.

Or, even worse, the cults just go to ground and wait for the acolytes to leave.

If someone new comes, this may be suspective at first, but if they tell a good cover story and life by it, people might start to ignore the newcomers, which improves their subtlety.

That would be my reasoning behind an initial rating of 50 on a planet. The potential to stand out, to not fit in would be strong inside a new community.

Personally I would track subtlety within each discrete unit of culture, so a town, hive, city, ship, etc. Each could have their own. It's a narrative tool so it should fit into the narrative of the game, not warp the story to it's mechanical talons.