I know most enthusiast players were unsatisfied with the epic map and troll pack. I was thinking there were at least a few opportunities they missed with the sets. I think it would be interesting to discuss the possible opinions they have with these packs going forward.

Visual hook

I think the maps are lacking a distinct visual hook. A printed one shot map should be both a game board and a work of art worthy of framing (frame would make a wonderful playing surface). Some easy hooks would be changing the season to fall or winter, coast line, mountain, a canyon, a fortress. Any kind of distinct geological feature would really make the map more pleasing and more valuable. I know the artwork would cost more but as an artist I think we need more work anyway.

It would be nice if they had some more terrain. Mabye a bog where green and blue units could move at full speed while red units and all cavalry could only move a space at a time. Just a thought.

Truth be told, I had little problem with how the map looked once we discovered the intended purpose. My biggest gripe was the price for what we got. I thought it should have been less expensive and they should have included the cards with it.

And maybe some more units.

ColtsFan76 said:

I'm sure they could have done the map with cheaper materials, because we see largish printed maps included in collectible games all the time. But those maps also tend to be more difficult to play on top of.

Where $20 bucks is expensive for a game mat, it's a very cheap price for a large artwork print.

While the artwork for the battlelore tiles and boards is very well done, it makes compromises for being modular. With a preprinted board there is a real opportunity to make something very beautiful something really worth $20.

Constructive...hmmmm...here goes...

If map packs must persist, then they'd better look a lot more alive. A poor man's copy of the board with the tiles "stuck on" and the absence of standard gaming aspects, set out by the main box and five previous expansions, does not a quality product make. So how to improve this?

I really do like the idea of special/alternative maps, creating an interesting scene. This has the potential to introduce narrative via the battlefield, rather than having to read the fluff of the scenario. I also see how turning such maps into a work of art might prove as some excellent eye-candy.

Unfortunately, the core game is eye-candy enough and I'd rather R&D's money to go into further innovative play designs or quality models (which may have redeemed the Troll expansion, except the mini was gorram awful!).

Candy models beats candy maps, I feel.

I also think that if they are going to create alternative maps, they should be something REALLY special. But I can't see how this would be done with a hex based game. Yes, seasonal maps would require a completely new board, but then they would potentially add little to the game beyond looking a little different. But as for something that might change the play of the game - like the aforementioned castle - this could easily be produced as a "large" variety overlay tile - e.g. a castle that might take up six hexes could be recreated as a single six-piece hex to place on the standard map (as opposed to six bits you have to place next to each other). Such pieces would prove far more versatile and reusable.

As much as I try to see the positive with the Troll product, I find myself chasing my own tail and ending up back where I started. Fortunately, FFG are now in charge and the focus is very firmly on game mechanics, suggested by the Heroes expansion.

...oh dear.

There is a big discussion about the troll extension over here in Europe, too.

Well, I think, it says, that the quality of the epic map is not to accept. DoW had formaly maps for tournaments, that were much better than this paper map.
And it does not legitimate the price!

The idea, I think, is very good. Quicker start to play an epic battle. DoW planned it as a run. I wonder, if FFG will go ahead with this idea?
But please in a better quality! I solved the paper map problem with a plexiglas overlay. That works great. The map is plain and the units do not shake on the map.

At least I think, it is more important to bring out the Heroe extension or that kind of extensions, we expected for so long!

SelbourT.

Plexiglas overlay? That's ingenius!

An alternative would be to use Over-Head Projector (OHP)-style sheets, cut to match the game area of the board. And if you had these as modular - say each one covered a single section (i.e. three are required to completely cover play area) - it would allow for far greater re-use. You could mix and match any three to create your own or official expansions - kinda like Tide of Iron 's map tiles..

Yeah, I might have considered this pack if the map was detailed any better than what I can recreate already. To me it added so little value that I would be getting it soley for the Troll. Since I thought the Troll was such a horrible sculpt, this pack ended up having nothing to offer for me. Adding creature cards/lair tile (if any for the Troll) should have been standard. Period. The artists could have been given liberty with the illustrations a la the D&D minis maps as this can't be that hard to do and would add tremendous value to the physical map. The map gets ease of use points but if I want ease of use with Battlelore, I'll go play on Vassal. Seasonal map features (not necessarily changing the mechanics of the map), creature cards/lair tile, some kind of uniqueness to the set all would have been value add points that would have gotten me to put my money down. As is, its crap for $18 US and I'll skip it while I wait (patiently) for Heroes.

I like the idea of having a feature made up out of one large tile, rather than having to stick several tiles together to make, say a castle.

with all them loose tiles theres a real danger of terrain moving, wich is rather annoying.

mind you with FF now owning the game there may be a good change we may get exactly such tiles as they've allready been using such 'multi tiles' in Tide of Iron. So they actually allready have the templates (is that the word I was looking for?) to make them, they just have to print them. I could be mistaken but aren't these tiles all the same size in BL - ToI and M44?

Ofcourse I do aggree with you all that expansions should be worth buying i.e. valllue for money, especially in these times when money still refuses to grow on trees and our partners will no doubt give us a hard time for wanting to buy games, when the money could better be spend on other things.

Obviously, being enthousiastic about the game one wants to possibly have it all. But I think we should be buying with our heads rather than witho our hearts and not simply buy anything they offer us for sale. I for one shall not be buying the epic game and am reasonably sure I won't bother with the troll either. Mind you I might change my mind if I find it at a more enjoyable price.

We as customers should show we are not charmed by certain expanions, because it's not really worth the money by not buying them . Lets be realistic, they are not likely to change it because we moan on this site after we've allready bought it. But if they get stuck with their supply of a certain expansion it may make them think the next time they come up with something new. And if no one buys them, they may feel obliged to change the price. Cause lets be realistic, it's all about the money and we can only influence things and get WHAT WE WANT by holding on to our money.

Come to think of it, wouldn't it be a possitive input if the designers etc. would actually ask us on this forum what we actually would like to see next in the game? I know we all assume they actually are keeping a close eye on what is suggested on this forum, but is there actually any proof that they are? I for one would really like to see a discussion with the actual game makers, in wich they'd let us as buyers help create the next expansion. Wouldn't that be fun?

nicely put



ok, this forum is strange, it wouldn't let me post this at first because it was "too short"

sagitar said:

I may be misunderstanding you here, but if you are suggesting that the Epic expansion is not a good value, I would disagree. At 15 USD (the MSRP when I purchased it - perhaps it has gone up?) it is very reasonable for the mounted board and various tokens and markers (lore, reluctant allies, etc.) and the valuable rulesets for Epic and Reluctant Allies games (though those are freely available). At 10 USD (the price I most commonly had seen it at, how much I spent at my FLGS) it is very much a deal.

toddrew said:

I think he might be referring to the Troll expansion pack Todd. It seems to get confused with the Epic expansion since the Troll map is also called an epic map pack.

Cab

I have not seen, nor can I think of, a single suggestion that makes the very thought of a paper map justified. Every suggestion to improve the value of the map so far can be applied also to a board. If you're going to invest resources in making a map more appealing, do so on a standard board, not a piece of paper. While I don't feel the Troll pack would be worth it even if the map was on a board rather than paper, it would be better, and they might have been deterred from printing the card and tile on the map and included the real thing.

The thought behind them is justified. it can easily travel and is already set-up. the intended purpose was to make for quick demoes at game stores or conventions. For that purpose, they are excellent as a board could not do all of that - storage wise or set up time.

Where it become a problem is adding the exclusive content and charging high prices.

something seems to be wrong with this site, instead of the last message displayed underneath, I get all sorts of error messages. Weird! ahwell at least an improvement from last week when I couldn't even acces my previous written missages.

Anyway.

First let me say that sofar I have not been convinced to buy any epic game. I find the whole idea of buying a paper map very offputting, especially when it is clear, after buying the basic game, that they are capable of making better maps.

You may find it worth the money, because it has extra tokens etc, (maybe you are right and I'm just being difficult, but I for one would like to see some extra miniatures rather than just paper and cardboard after paying that kind of money. Afterall pay a few (dollars- euros) more and you can get a load of new troops, wich to me, seems far more interesting and better vallue for money.

Asfar as maps go it's slightly confusing, but as I understand it when we have the basic BL we can use the back side of the map for epic games. All we need is a friend who has the game, to make our map complete. Or if you really feel like spending, you can buy a 2nd box.

Now as I understood it they came up with the epic sets so we wouldn't have to buy a 2nd set of BL and could save us some money. That made me wonder why trollbridge comes with an epic map aswell. Surely there is no point in having two epic maps, unless you want to play an epic epic game.

But as coltsfan now explains to me, I have clearly missunderstood. Apparenlty they've come up with the epic maps, so you can easily transport them, should you wish to play the game with friends. Now personally I wouldn't mind some hassle if it ment playing the game on a real map, but than again I'm not likeley to travel with my game, so maybe I'd change my minds if I would have to do so.

Now am I correct in understand from one of the previous posts that the epic maps actually allready have all the terrain features on them? So this means you don't have to bring you tiles. Wich I reckon could be good for easier travel, buth than you'd still have to bring your armies - just a moment while I check - Yeah your right the reall wait is in the map etc, the armies don't weigh anything at all. So granted you may have a point there.

On the down side this ofcourse means that you can only play one scenario on an epic map. (maybe I've missunderstood?) So you use the troll bridge epic set to battle the troll and if you want to play a different (epic) game, you'll need a new map. (surely I must have miss understood).

Looking ahead to epansions probably still to be bought, I can imagine that at some point I will need an epic map. Well if you go through the trouble of buying all them armies, you ofcourse also want to be able to use them in a game and not be forced to just play with a selected part of your army. Where's the fun in that. If I look at what is for sale, it seems to me the gameboard will soon be filled to capacity and you will find yourself unable to move for the number of units.

Now what I'd like to see is a more flexable game board. And a real board, not a paper one. With flexable I mean, you'd be able to expand it. Make your basic map larger by adding new additions to the map, thoes making a larger map. You'll probably say this idea won't work as a map would soon become too large. Than again if you want to use your armies you'll need more room. At least this would give you the opportunity to play with all your units in one game, have a reall epic war, with all you have. No doubt in future FF will come up with even more new units so where will it end? Will this mean (provided we keep up and buy all) that at one point we'll only be able to use a small part of our armies. Use the rest of them as an audiance perhaps?

It probably does, and I for one think that would be a reall shame.

,

Sagitar, apologies if you already understood what I was trying to ask/point out in my first post, but the original Epic expansion was a mounted board - basically the same board that came with the base game. Also included in that expansion were the extra lore tokens required, and additional markers for playing Reluctant Allies. No paper maps.

The only paper map so far is the one that is the Troll and Country expansion.

No problem Toddrew.

So if I understand this correctly the epic expansion actually gives you a reall map (well not paper)? I'm sure I read somewhere it was a paper map.

I assumed the first epic map was made up out of two basic game boards put together. Wich obviously ment having to buy the game twice.

sagitar said:

The Epic expansions contains a 2nd board so that you do not need to get a 2nd game. The Troll expansion, also using the Epic format, comes with a paper map of the epic board with terrain and initial unit positions already printed on the map.

Now that seems like a perfectly good reason to put the epic expansion back on my list.

For some reason, probably missread something, I was under the impression the epic one came with a paper map.

On the down side, epic doesn't come with any figures if I'm not mistaken, wich I find rather offputting. So why exactly do you like epic.

So if I understand this correctly the map of the throll expanions is the same map as the one you can make (using the basic map) with the epic expanansion. But the throll map allready has the unitpositions indicated, wich means you can only play the throll scenarion on that map.

Somehow I think that is a pitty, as it also prevents us from adding this paper map to the reall maps and go for a really epic game.

I'm still hoping for a game scenario (that'll probably need a huge map, that'll allow us to use ALL THE UNITS we have. It still can't get myself to buy units knowing I'll only use them so often.

Why not have a scenario where additional troops may enter the field after you've lost a certain amount of banners.

Just a curiosity question: does anyone know how many units we have if we buy all there is to buy at this moment?

i'm not very sure a senario that uses everything is needed for everything to feel valuable. figures in battle lore are like jelly beans, you can enjoy new combinations of a few flavors again and again, but if you stick all 49 flavors in your mouth at once your likely to get something that tastes bad and is hard to chew.

in other words, the idea is the more figures you add to your colection the more replay value the game has. Because if you can only play with a small selection of a large pool of units, each game will bring new combinations to the board.

sagitar said:

I won't go into whether or not the original base game should have included a second board and the requisite tokens in order to play Epic games (I happen to be of the mind that the way DoW rolled out the game in this manner was just fine), but the Epic expansion allows for a way to play BattleLore that has a very different feel from the base game. The single board adventures wonderfully depict minor skirmishes. The double board Epic adventures wonderfully increase the scale (or detail) of the battle. If I had to pick one way (base game; single board) or another (Epic; double board) to play, I would choose the smaller arena. However, I don't have to choose , I get to do both. (By the way, I think I am in the minority with that preference.)

Between the base game, Epic, Call to Arms, No Lore/Custom War Councils/Medieval Lore, and the endless possibilities of scenario conditions, recognizing the versatility of this game is what initially endeared me to it, and convinced me that I would not be disappointed in committing to this game. With Heroes close approaching, as well as the lingering potential of a race explosion and campaign rules, I remain as entrenched in this game as I ever was.

sagitar said:

The rationale behind the troll map was to have an easily constructed battlefield - great for convention or tournament settings. Similar to the maps being developed for Memoir '44, I believe this was to be a serial type development, which over time would generate quite a few adventures to catalog for such environments. Again, whether this was a good or bad idea, I leave to be debated elsewhere.

Having the particular positions marked out does not prevent the map from being used for other scenarios (the location/presence of terrain presents a larger issue in this regard), but the paper maps sacrifice ease of versatility for ease of set up.

sagitar said:

In lots of Commands & Colors: Ancients scenarios there are ambush/re-inforcement situations. Only a matter of time before some "official" adventures take advantage of such special rules, and plenty of player-made adventures do so.

sagitar said:

Plenty Yet, not enough

I prefer the epic style, the setup time is nearly the same but the play experience is much better, imo. Therefore, the epic expansion was the best expansion I bought. However, I don't think that I will acquire the troll expansion.