Would it make sense to set a limit on characteristic values formplayer characters ?

Something based on the starting value of a character?

I think starting value +30 would be a good limit, so if I start with Strength 38, I can get up to Strength 68 as my personal maximum.

This however does not change the limit on the maximum characteristic advances, which should stay at 1 time per rank.

In this way, the limit may not be broken, but you can restore characteristic losses; an additional benefit would be, that a characteristic loss not necessarily damages your reachable maximum.

What do you think ?

The absence of unnatural characteristics, the existence of higher starting characteristics, and the greatly diminished list of situational or fixed bonuses to skills and characteristics suggests that we ought to be more comfortable with seeing some really large numbers show up on character sheets.

Certainly NPCs have both varied and large numbers even at relatively low threat levels. Consider that a character with a WS of 30 and a +30 limit would never be able to be better at melee than a necrophage, an elite npc rated as a modest 12 if memory serves.

One of the strengths of allowing up to ten total advances in a characteristic is that even a PC with a low starting stat can train and pursue mastery of their field (spend more of their xp there). This also allows for greater character evolution. The PCs were chosen by the Inquisition for a reason after all.

If permanent stat damage displeases you either replace all such crit results for characteristic decay, make it curable with bionics, or accept that it adds mortality and risk to the wound system and try hard not to get hit.

TL;DR No cap needed. The limit on the number of advances, the speed at which you can get them, and the increasing cost of advances are enough.

I dislike the uncapped stats thing and see no reason stat damage should be beyond the Inquisition to heal.

I'm really torn about this.

I think the real problem here is the enormous variance that is possible with humans.

Strength is the easiest to visualize. With the current rules, a human being (granted, an acolyte, who's probably special) can vary from being able to lift 20kg (Sb=2) to 2000kg (Sb=9).

That's ridiculous. There's something off about the carrying capacity tables, too, but the sheer spread is absurd. There's a limit to what the human body can do (reaching 90+ strength does not need any cybernetics, special talents or anything else), even in Warhammer, and I think we've passed it.

I'm really torn about this.

I think the real problem here is the enormous variance that is possible with humans.

Strength is the easiest to visualize. With the current rules, a human being (granted, an acolyte, who's probably special) can vary from being able to lift 20kg (Sb=2) to 2000kg (Sb=9).

That's ridiculous. There's something off about the carrying capacity tables, too, but the sheer spread is absurd. There's a limit to what the human body can do (reaching 90+ strength does not need any cybernetics, special talents or anything else), even in Warhammer, and I think we've passed it.

This is all true. Maybe we should look into implante after the the first few stat upgrades so players can have stupidly high stats (SHS for short) but still have some believability. I still don't like SHSs but if you do I hope this helps you.

I'm really torn about this.

I think the real problem here is the enormous variance that is possible with humans.

Strength is the easiest to visualize. With the current rules, a human being (granted, an acolyte, who's probably special) can vary from being able to lift 20kg (Sb=2) to 2000kg (Sb=9).

That's ridiculous. There's something off about the carrying capacity tables, too, but the sheer spread is absurd. There's a limit to what the human body can do (reaching 90+ strength does not need any cybernetics, special talents or anything else), even in Warhammer, and I think we've passed it.

Yes and no. Officio Assassinorum members are more or less the t rope of badass normal to the point of supernatural. They literally train themselves into being able to outperform Space Marines. That is the fluff more or less. This is a "goes to 11" setting in every way, I am okay with stretching the limits of human capacity as we know them. After all, there are brain powerz and space orcs, we can't be too bound by contemporary realism.

The explanation need not be pure training either if you prefer. Call it hyper conditioning, mnemoimprints, obscure hyper circuitry, gene-engineering, vat grown muscle, or some combination of such things.

The highest levels of characteristic advance if players decide to invest in them could totally have some pretty amazing explanations. By rank 10, one can assume acolytes are throne agents or inquisitors themselves, and are totally powerful enough to have access to the implants, cybernetics, and rejuvenat treatments that make the haves in 40k so different from the have nots.

I had a player in a past campaign that purchased strength advances for his biomancer focused psyker but had the explanation that they were actually a result of him bodyscuplting himself with biomancy over time and that he did not train in a gym a single day to gain the strength.

(also, carrying capacity is stupid, modern soldiers have 45+kg of gear standard, the low end is pathetic and the high end is pushing absurd)

If you keep in mind that DH2 kind of combines DH1 and Ascension in one, than this could be ok to get such high stats as a human.

Otherwise I would prefer to set a certain cap, be it a fix value or a relative value to the starting value.

If someone btw starts with 30, he already is below average, so he shouldnt ever reach a very high value - and I wouldnt declare a necrophage so weak that it would be a shame to be weaker than him. It is not needed to out-stat any NPC.

You should remain slower than Eldar and weaker than Orks in most cases in my oppinion.

I want to repeat that I would not set this cap regarding the numbers of possible advancements, as they are needed to compensate losses.

There's already a cap, in the rank limit.

If you still think stats go up too fast, then increase the xp needed for each rank.

It is not about how fast it goes up, it is more about what max value can be reached.

A value of lets say 40 (starting value) + 50 (10 ranks*5) seems very much for a human.

Yes, the values are generally higher in DH2, but that much ?

An Eldar has how much agility now in DH2 ? ~60 ?

They formerly had Unnatural Agility.

If now a human can reach in average (36 start value) 86, that seems too much even in DH2 scaling.

Keep in mind the XP costs associated with getting your attributes anywhere near that high. This is especially true if you happen to be advancing one of your expensive characteristics.

The way the XP costs scale really encourages diversification of stats, and makes it prohibitive to reach anywhere near the maximum levels theoretically possible. Sure, you might have a character who's more agile than an Eldar novice, but he can't do much besides move fast and Evade well.

Eh, I am totally happy with it. Maybe file away characteristic caps as a house rule you can implement at your pleasure.

The costs for your cheapest characteristics aren't really that expensive. What really encourages (enforces) diversification is that you can only take an advance for each characteristic once per rank.

On characteristic loss: each of the damage tables has 2 or 3 results that give characteristic loss, and each table corresponds to a different characteristic. The loss amounts range from 1d5 to 2d10+5 (as much as five advances in a single wound).

Combining the above two points, I don't think the potential maximum values will be too much of a problem.

Lets hope so - I guess this can be better evaluated after a longer playing time. On lower ranks you wont have any influence anyway.

Over a long enough playing time, all characters will end up being unplayable - if not through final death (ie, all Fate points burned), then through gradual and entirely irreplaceable characteristic loss, to the point that characteristics reach 0.

Probably a good model of the average throne agent's life, actually.