Unfortunately my test campaign does not include any melee-oriented players so I cannot speak to the melee RoA situation besides the occasional dabbling imposed by charging npcs, but I do have a psyker and my group has used a wide variety of weapons on their rise to rank 5.

We came to this conclusion:

Multiple action point costs to fire a weapon or attack are crippling and destroy much of the flexibility and choice that APs added to combat.

My PCs hated using weapons that had a fire rate of 1/2 and quickly discarded them in favor of higher RoF weapons. This was not because they all had high BS. Even the techpriest with relatively unimpressive BS preferred higher RoF weapons simply so he could move in and out of cover, avoid melee, reserve AP for evade reactions, aim, make called shots, or otherwise do interesting things.

We have house-ruled nothing so far except this. All attacks that called for multiple AP for a single trigger pull or swing got altered to 1 AP. All those that were formerly 1/2 were given a totally made up "double shot" quality for the purpose of limiting them to a max RoF of 2 per round (using two AP, one for each shot). This is not a shot every other AP, but it was a relatively clean change otherwise. Anything with 1/3 or 1/4 for a RoF was then given the single-shot quality. This means more aiming or movement or whatnot can happen with slower firing weapons without dramatically changing the overall RoF-balance situation.

APs are, as actions always are in rpgs, the most valuable currency a player has and taking them away in big swathes just to fire slow firing weapons seemed unnecessarily punishing.

This same logic extended to the group's psyker. The psychic powers, even after spending 1000s of xp on PL and WP, were not compelling alternatives to the psyker just shooting whatever guns were lying around. In fact, the psyker still makes extensive use of autopistols, a sniper rifle, and a looted plasma pistol because even at PL 5 then range, RoF, pen, and damage of most weapons beats out nearly all psychic attacks. This is even true with easily accessible weapons that likely do not even require a 300xp proficiency and need only an easy acquisition roll or even come default with a character.

Making Psychic attacks take a single AP might make them outstrip some pistols, but they certainly do not compare with melee scaling, dual wielding, plasma, or even the now somewhat tame bolt weapons. Of course the stealthiness of carrying around such weapons compared to being a psyker is always a feature, but using psychic powers is not without risk and is arguably a lot higher profile in terms of subtlety, and at least as of now, many more talents allow the boosting of BS attacks than psychic ones.

Personally I would love to see a psyker dual wield a weapon and warp based attacks. I think it would interesting and evoke the setting. The tendency to shoe horn psykers into a scholarly role is silly in my opinion, and certainly not appropriate for many of the psychically powerful inquisitors and their agents in the fluff. Not everyone has an Abnett-vision for their campaign, but I like my Eisenhorn and Ravenor-style group compositions and would love to see the gun-toting, combat oriented, and street savvy psyker be easier to implement.

I think the system should be kept as is, but those weapons with an RoF BELOW 1, should all be checked, if they shoukd not be set on 1 instead and receive single-shot.

For some powerful or quite heavy to wield weapons a RoF of below 1 indeed makes sense - just make sure that not the wrong weapons get it below 1 - like the bolt pistol, stub revolver and needle weapons, which should get 1 each.

Other weapons fit quite well, like the plasma weapons which would be balanced by the slower rate.

Also flamers and shotguns are ok with below 1, but the shotgun needs some additional bonus trait or additional damage.

All in all - change a handful of ranged weapons and it is fine.

With melee I would strongly advice to make the scaling RoFs scale slower with a characteristic/2 approach, otherwise there can occur odd situations and really really fast and deadly eldar ninjas

Weapons with RoF below 1 need to be very clear about the cost.

If it's a long cycling time, there is NO EXCUSE for you not to be able to do something else like aim while the thing powers up.

So a 1/2 Plasma, as is, is crap [deals both too little AND too much damage, isn't worth the AP cost, low ammo count and low RoF both count heavily against being able to kill anything due to the wound table bonus system], but at least if it was "you HAVE to spend 2AP on the attack, minimum, and thus allowed you to aim or called-shot, that would be a different matter.

If it's a long discharge, such as a flamer or sustained coherent beam or whatever, those should have their own mechanics as well. This could allow niches, special ways of using weapons, etc.

Plasma would be the one 1/2 weapon I really have no problems about.

Its volatile damage and low rate make it a special thing to wield.

With a reduced Pen this weapon would be ok.

If you're scared of plasma, you should be. It's supposed to be dangerous, one of the few real equalizer weapons between a mere mortal and one of the horrors of the universe (or a Space Marine).

Or look at it another way. Nerf the weapon, not the player. If you absolutely can't stand plasma in its current form, then don't remove actions from the player, make the weapon less scary.

My suggestion would be to make plasma have Togath's "double shot" quality and a RoF of 1, since that offers the best balance between a limited rate of fire (for balance) and an ability to put several shots down-range (for flavor), without removing options from the players. Spend up to 2 AP to attack, getting up to 2 hits.

For duration-fire weapons (flamers and such) my inclination is to keep it at RoF1 and just reduce the single-hit damage potential. If you want to have a shorter spray, why not allow it? You could of course extend the spray duration by spending more AP. FFG might even consider adding a "sustained" weapon quality, where more AP leads to more damage on the hit, rather than more hits.

Nah, a short loading time for plasma may very well lead to the 1/2 - and it is an important balancing factor.

I agree that not all weapons should be equal. Of course there should be stronger weapons and weaker weapons, as the world is just like that.

Naver the less, a certain scaling development should be aimed at, that does not make other weapons useless (especially other iconic weapons who share about the level of plasma).

So: make plasma a dangerous horrible thing. But a little slower and with certain risks to wield.

All weapons with an RoF below one should be bumped up to one. Then add a special quality, Single Shot(X). X being the amount of times per round you can fire the gun.

Single shot is an awful name for the quality, but I'm sure someone else can come up with something better.

This is another point where we disagree.

I like RoF's below 1 with certain weapons like sniper rifles, heavy melee weapons or slow rate weapons like bows and even to agree (and for the balance) for plasma weapons.

I think it is a good way to balance weapons out and an interesting tactical instrument.

Never the less, I think some weapons currently have a RoF under 1 which dont deserve it, first of all the bolt pistol, but also to a degree the stub Revolver and Needle Weapons.

With all weapons else I am quite fine.

I can see it making sense with primitive weapons and MAYBE even Plasma but ultimately it just doesn't make much sense for most guns. I just can't grasp that pulling a trigger takes more than a second. And it seems like the inclusion of such nasty RoF values is just to limit the amount of times you can fire, which would be fixed with use of the single shot quality.

To get an overview of all current ranged weapons with RoF below 1 (status of Update 3):

Bolt Pistol 1/2

Long-Las 1/2

Stub Revolver 1/2

Hand Cannon 1/2

Shotgun 1/2

Sniper Rifle 1/3

Inferno Pistol 1/2

Melta Gun 1/2

Plasma Pistol 1/2

Plasma Gun 1/2

Hand Flamer 1/2

Flamer 1/2

Heavy Flamer 1/3

Bolas 1/2

Bow 1/3

Grenade Launcher 1/2

Missile Launcher 1/3

Needle Pistol 1/2

Needle Rifle 1/2

Webber 1/3

Grenades 1/2

With the follwoing weapons I am more than fine with that as they are either quite heavy or have a certain slow rate.

So I think the following are quite fine as they are and well balanced regarding RoF:

Long-Las 1/2

Hand Cannon 1/2

Shotgun 1/2

Sniper Rifle 1/3

Inferno Pistol 1/2

Melta Gun 1/2

Plasma Pistol 1/2

Plasma Gun 1/2

Hand Flamer 1/2

Flamer 1/2

Heavy Flamer 1/3

Bolas 1/2

Needle Pistol 1/2

Needle Rifle 1/2

Grenade Launcher 1/2

Missile Launcher 1/3

Webber 1/3

Grenades 1/2

With the following I would do some changes:

Bolt Pistol 1/2 --> make it 1

Stub Revolver 1/2 --> make it 1

Bow 1/3 --> make it (Agility-Bonus/2)-3 (with Agility Bonus 3 or 4 you would have 1/3, with 5 or 6 it would be 1/2)

Needle Pistol 1/2 --> make it 1

Needle Rifle 1/2 ---> make it 1

Melee weapons have almost alwast a RoF below 1, but that is fine so far.

I would just change the scaling of the RoF which rely on characteristics to scale with Characteristic/2 (rounded up) to make the scaling softer.

Why can't you be aiming or prepping a called shot while the long las charges up its next blast? How is a hand flamer helpful in close quarters if it takes longer to fire it than it would to swing your sword about twelve times at full, equipment-boosted power? What is it about a simple compressed-air semi-auto canister-launcher [the grenade launcher] that makes it so action intensive to fire even once?

A lot of those weapons seem to have that RoF because they would have some kind of initial set-up time.

But written like they are, they instead just... fire really slowly in some kind of warp-addled sorcerous manner that makes you stand there like an idiot for 3/4 of your turn [sniper rifle] because you're certainly not setting it up [brace] and aiming.

Plus, making them take so long to fire only makes the high rate of fire weapons MORE appealing, which is probably not a great idea. Limit the amount of times you can fire them, sure, but don't eat up all of your AP. The benefit of single shot weapons should be that you can take time to aim, which you can't really do under the current rules. You're too busy pulling the trigger, veeeeeeeery slowly.

With flamers I'd say it needs a certain roasting time to actually deal the given damage (put your toast too short in the toaster and it just aint crispy).

As for the other weapons: they are not slow - it is rather that the other weapons are faster.

More than that, it is a good tool to balance out weapons, something which I appreciate much more than 100& realism.

In general I am pro-realism, but at some points you need to keep different weapons interesting for different reasons.

And it still has a realistic feeling, at least for me.

As for the sniper rifle - it not only takes the time to fire, but there is already additional time integrated that is needed to use such a accurate weapon.

And as long as we dont even have range modifers, I am not really ready to discuss about the realism of a 1/3 RoF without integrated aiming action for Sniper rifles.

The thing is, I'm fairly sure this doesn't contribute positively to balance. Automatic weapons are already given a lot of advantages over lower RoF weapons.

That is why I propose to give a damage bonus to called shots (an even higher bonus if the weapon is accurate).

This gives a reason to make RoA 1 attacks and also helps to create a sniper / sneak attack rule.

I can see it making sense with primitive weapons and MAYBE even Plasma but ultimately it just doesn't make much sense for most guns. I just can't grasp that pulling a trigger takes more than a second. And it seems like the inclusion of such nasty RoF values is just to limit the amount of times you can fire, which would be fixed with use of the single shot quality.

Exactly so. In fact, I don't see it making any sense for plasma. If you think plasma is unbalanced, then give it single shot or nerf it some other way or both. Don't make it take 5 seconds to pull the trigger. That is silly.

As far as I'm concerned, the advantage of low rate of fire weapons should be that you can aim, make called shots etc. With how it works now though, they don't even get that. Hell, you can't aim+called shot with a **** sniper rifle. That's just wrong.

Cant you aim and call-shot with a sniper rifle, if you do it over 2 turns ?

If not, this should be allowed.

Regarding plasma - in my oppinion, the plasma-gun starts to load its power up before shooting, therewhile slightly vibrating, which causes constant concentration to hold it correctly onto the target.

Aiming only counts for the turn in which the weapon is fired on. So you can't pre-aim, for some reason.

I think the important consideration here, when you break it down, is this; do weapons with 1/2 or 1/3 RoF actually gain anything beneficial from that penalty, balance wise? I think, in the case of plasma, definitely not. Same with sniper rifles, and basically all the other weapons, as far as I see it. The only thing this adds, balance wise, is restricting the amount of shots you can fire, which as I've been saying, can be achieved otherwise. Single shot weapons are already pretty unappealing choices next to their faster equivalents, they don't need to eat up your whole turn on top of that.

I would just enable players to keep an aiming bonus as long as they do no other action than called shot or attack.

It would be a good idea to add a maximum amount of aiming action which can be accumulated though, maybe 2 ? Or PerB/2 ?

I definitely agree that aiming should be allowed across turns, but it's not a fix for the issue. As for a limit, I'd say three actions is probably reasonable. That's +45 with an accurate gun.

Three actions is good, for me, but maybe tying it to a characteristic would also be good. Maybe BS/2 for ranged and WS/2 for melee (each rounded up) ? Or PerB/2 in general ?

Three actions is good, for me, but maybe tying it to a characteristic would also be good. Maybe BS/2 for ranged and WS/2 for melee (each rounded up) ? Or PerB/2 in general ?

I like the idea. How about this. Aiming IRL is actually a function of controlling body rhythms, slowing heart rate, shallow breathing, and then shooting with your muscles not tensed and between heartbeats and inhaling and exhaling. Consequently, one could even make it toughness based, or even based on a skill.

In general though, allowing aiming across rounds to be much more than 3 gets silly and much less at low levels is abusive, so from a game balance perspective a flat 3 should still be roughly the objective I think.

Maybe you are right and a flat 3 max would be fine, not very complicated and not very abuseable.

How does this work with Overwatch ? Is it possible to combine this somehow ?

As far as I know you cannot currently aim while setting up overwatch, which may or may not be something in need of changing. Overwatch is already extremely potent (not necessarily OP, just useful) given how easy it is to pick up at low levels. If you were to combine it I would imagine since you can declare a certain number of Action points to be committed to overwatch when you first establish it that you could declare some of them to be aim when you set it up.

The concept of overwatch seems to me to be tunnel-visioning and preparing to twitch fire and so I am not really sure aim is appropriate to combine with it in any case.