Having genned a few characters and run them though a few combats, I've noticed a few things mechanically, mostly concerning the new Rate of Fire mechanic and the balance between different ranged weapons (I haven't really experimented much with the melee weapons)

1) Having a BS of 50, as opposed to 49 or 40 as opposed to 39, makes a massive difference in effectiveness when RoA is high. If your BS is divisible by 10, you will almost always hit at least twice with a RoA of 2 or higher.

2) Long-lases and Sniper Rifles don't see to do terribly well in comparison to Lasguns, but Bolters outperform Lasguns and Autoguns despite a lower RoF (Tearing is really very good).

3) Dual-wielding is very very good, even for characters who aren't Desperados and don't have Gunslinger. It is especially good when dual-wielding weapons with a RoF of 2 or higher (Autopistols, notably, but also Autoguns and Lasguns with Custom-Grip or Recoil Gloves)

4) Bolters used with Custom-Grip or Recoil Gloves are much, much better than Bolt Pistols.

5) Autopistols seemed to massively outperform Laspistols and give Bolt Pistols a very close run for their money.

6) Plasma and Melta weapons didn't seem to notably out-perform Bolt weapons, but I was mostly testing human opponents against each other; they may shine against superhuman enemies.

7) Storm-Bolters are head-and-shoulders above other weaponry. Dual Storm-bolters with Custom-Grip are akin to the Wrath of God.

Thoughts/Suggestions: I think Autopistols might need nerfing; either reducing RoF to 1 or lowering damage. I think Custom Grip and Recoil Gloves might need a look at (off the top of my head, reducing the RoF by 1 when Basic Weapons are wielded one-handed and/or forcing the character to use a Light weapon in their off-hand might help (So you could have Bolter-and-Bolt-Pistol, but not Bolter-and-Bolter or, Emperor have Mercy, Storm-Bolter-and-Storm-Bolter.

Are you testing the weapons in a vacuum or in a complete combat with various weapons used in concert with one another? Mostly thinking about the +5 damage per wound taken stacking due to high ROF.

Other then that, looks good. Done or planning to do any testing on melee weapons?

Are you testing the weapons in a vacuum or in a complete combat with various weapons used in concert with one another? Mostly thinking about the +5 damage per wound taken stacking due to high ROF.

Other then that, looks good. Done or planning to do any testing on melee weapons?

Mostly I had a Acolyte with a certain weapon fight one-on-one with Elite enemies who had the same stats as them but a different weapon. I also put a team of 4 Acolytes (again, identical clones with different weapons) against 4 Novice level enemies with slightly worse stats and two Elite leaders (whose stats were the same as the Acolytes).

Teamwork where one character puts a bunch of wounds on an Elite/PC enemy and then the other finishes them off is pretty effective; one of the things that makes dual-wielding good is that you can be your own team-mate in that respect. I thought before I started that high ROF to soften enemies followed by high damage single shot would be really good, but as far as I can tell, one high ROF weapon (so you can fill him with loads of holes) followed by a second high ROF weapon (so you have plenty of AP left for aiming) is still the best way to go.

I may or may not go on to test melee weapons. Depends if someone else does it before I regain the gumption to do another round of Clone Wars.

Alright, sounds good. I was mostly worried that this would be the case. Do you have a rough estimate as to the difference in damage output from a high RoF build, with say dual autopistols, and a singelshot weapon like sniper rifle or shotgun? And roughly what toughness/armour is needed to migitate this?

Alright, sounds good. I was mostly worried that this would be the case. Do you have a rough estimate as to the difference in damage output from a high RoF build, with say dual autopistols, and a singelshot weapon like sniper rifle or shotgun? And roughly what toughness/armour is needed to migitate this?

I'll run the maths on this, rather than give you pure anecdote.

Assuming BS 50, no Gunslinger, no Desperado, a character who spends all 4 AP on shooting his dual autopistols will, on average, get 2.53 hits.

With the same stats, a character who spends 3 AP shooting his sniper rifle and 1 AP bracing will, on average, get 0.5 hits.

Sniper rifle does d10+10, Autopistols do d10. The Autopistol guy will get near-as-****-it 5 times as many hits. Therefore, on a wound-for-wound basis, they break even when the enemy defence is at 8 (The Sniper Rifle gets 0.5 wound, the Autopistols get 0.506) and the Sniper Rifle pulls into the lead when the enemy defence is above 9.

This doesn't seem too bad, but consider the following;

1. Autopistol dude can happily use less than all 4 AP, Sniper dude needs all 4 (3 if already braced).

2. Autopistol dude has a Talent easily available that'll really improve his damage output (Gunslinger)

3. If Autopistol dude is a Desperado, his number of hits go up significantly.

4. If Autopistols start to bounce, Custom-Gripped Autogun, Lasguns or Hot-shot Lasguns are options. And while PCs can't start with Sniper Rifles, they can start with Recoil Gloves or Custom-Gripped weapons.

Sorry to cut in, but how does the autopistol guy spend 4AP on shooting. I thought characters could only make 1 attack action a turn (p201, step 1) or two when using two weapons, but the second attack is at -20.

Is there an aim action before each shot?

I totally stand to be corrected however as I might have missed something.

Sorry to cut in, but how does the autopistol guy spend 4AP on shooting. I thought characters could only make 1 attack action a turn (p201, step 1) or two when using two weapons, but the second attack is at -20.

Is there an aim action before each shot?

I totally stand to be corrected however as I might have missed something.

No worries! He does indeed make 2 attacks, but he spends 2 AP on each, making his Rate of Attack 4 for each gun (Rate of Fire 2 x 2 for spending 2 Action Points).

The first attack is at BS 50, scoring 1 hit if he rolls 50, 2 hits if he rolls 40-49, 3 hits if he rolls 30-39, 4 hits if he roll 1-29. The second attack is at BS 30, scoring 1 hit if he rolls 30, 2 hits if he rolls 20-29, 3 hits if he rolls 10-19, 4 hits if he rolls 1-9.

It averages out at 2.52 hits.

Sorry to cut in, but how does the autopistol guy spend 4AP on shooting. I thought characters could only make 1 attack action a turn (p201, step 1) or two when using two weapons, but the second attack is at -20.

Is there an aim action before each shot?

I totally stand to be corrected however as I might have missed something.

No worries! He does indeed make 2 attacks, but he spends 2 AP on each, making his Rate of Attack 4 for each gun (Rate of Fire 2 x 2 for spending 2 Action Points).

The first attack is at BS 50, scoring 1 hit if he rolls 50, 2 hits if he rolls 40-49, 3 hits if he rolls 30-39, 4 hits if he roll 1-29. The second attack is at BS 30, scoring 1 hit if he rolls 30, 2 hits if he rolls 20-29, 3 hits if he rolls 10-19, 4 hits if he rolls 1-9.

It averages out at 2.52 hits.

Ah cool, I'd missed the variable AP spend on the actual action, thanks for that (and for putting these mathhammer runs together).

Does seem that the high RoF weapons are very nasty tied with the wound rules. I'm guessing that cover is king against this type of weapon giving you the protection needed not to be dropped quickly, at which point talents involving cover (like the Arbite) or high damage weapons like the sniper rifle become important.

When you did the elite and novice run above, did you have any cover or was it a pure hit vs evade test?

Ah cool, I'd missed the variable AP spend on the actual action, thanks for that (and for putting these mathhammer runs together).

Does seem that the high RoF weapons are very nasty tied with the wound rules. I'm guessing that cover is king against this type of weapon giving you the protection needed not to be dropped quickly, at which point talents involving cover (like the Arbite) or high damage weapons like the sniper rifle become important.

When you did the elite and novice run above, did you have any cover or was it a pure hit vs evade test?

It was in the proverbial plaiin white room, so no cover. It may be that cover is where the sniper rifle comes into it's own.

Like I suspected based on basic math, RoF is king in this iteration of the rules, with dual-wielding almost always being a straight upgrade for the same AP usage. The average defense values just aren't large enough to noticeably mitigate it at anything but very high rank, and the weird interaction between dual wielding and attacks (it's the only way to make your own hits give you bonuses on wounds inflicted) only makes this worse.

Considering the low damage values, cover is indeed very good, but any real cover will more or less completely block any shot, so snipers aren't much better than anything else, and the high RoF weapons have greater odds of hitting the body parts sticking out of cover.

Like I suspected based on basic math, RoF is king in this iteration of the rules, with dual-wielding almost always being a straight upgrade for the same AP usage. The average defense values just aren't large enough to noticeably mitigate it at anything but very high rank, and the weird interaction between dual wielding and attacks (it's the only way to make your own hits give you bonuses on wounds inflicted) only makes this worse.

Considering the low damage values, cover is indeed very good, but any real cover will more or less completely block any shot, so snipers aren't much better than anything else, and the high RoF weapons have greater odds of hitting the body parts sticking out of cover.

High ROF weapons can also more easily spare the AP to do a Called Shot on whatever is sticking out of cover.

High ROF weapons can also more easily spare the AP to do a Called Shot on whatever is sticking out of cover.

Exactly; currently, the sniper can't even be aimed and use call shot at the same time, which is why you take one in the first place . You either lose out on the weapon's better accuracy, or you lose out on the damage bonus by having to shoot through cover. Either way, more RoF is plain better.

I would disagree about defense values not being up to task. For an average character in crap armor, a hit only has a 40-50% chance of causing a wound. With a well armored and/or tough character, that goes down to a 20-30% chance. I posted some math in the general discussion thread on autofire, but a pretty large number of hits (4-5) need to be racked up at once before most of the auto fire weapons have a better than 50% chance of getting 2 or more wounds in an attack.

I would disagree about defense values not being up to task. For an average character in crap armor, a hit only has a 40-50% chance of causing a wound. With a well armored and/or tough character, that goes down to a 20-30% chance. I posted some math in the general discussion thread on autofire, but a pretty large number of hits (4-5) need to be racked up at once before most of the auto fire weapons have a better than 50% chance of getting 2 or more wounds in an attack.

The thing is, currently, single shot weapons never get more than 1 hit; sure, they are almost guaranteed to inflict damage if they hit, but you won't be hitting all that often compared to the full auto, and with the wound system requiring a pile of hits to allow for kills, you either need massive damage, or more hits.

The only thing really keeping full-auto back is the relative rarity of bonuses to ranged attacks, which make iterative attacks more difficult, thereby reducing the odds of attacks that cause wounds. However, this is easily solved by dual wielding, which allows for the same potential number of attacks while requiring smaller successes, and, with the current status on recoil gloves being what it is (as in, you should never leave the hab spire without at least 2 pairs of those dirt cheap damage boosting hand warmers), you don't even lose out on damage when dual wielding compared to normal full-auto. Of course, if you need the extra damage, then single shot will be better, but the ease of dual wielding makes it relatively easy to score 2 or more wounding hits, especially if you edge your bets on a weapon with only RoF 2 but more damage rather than an autogun, like overcharged lasguns and latter overcharged hellguns, eventually moving up to storm bolters.

I would disagree about defense values not being up to task. For an average character in crap armor, a hit only has a 40-50% chance of causing a wound. With a well armored and/or tough character, that goes down to a 20-30% chance. I posted some math in the general discussion thread on autofire, but a pretty large number of hits (4-5) need to be racked up at once before most of the auto fire weapons have a better than 50% chance of getting 2 or more wounds in an attack.

The thing is, currently, single shot weapons never get more than 1 hit; sure, they are almost guaranteed to inflict damage if they hit, but you won't be hitting all that often compared to the full auto, and with the wound system requiring a pile of hits to allow for kills, you either need massive damage, or more hits.

The only thing really keeping full-auto back is the relative rarity of bonuses to ranged attacks, which make iterative attacks more difficult, thereby reducing the odds of attacks that cause wounds. However, this is easily solved by dual wielding, which allows for the same potential number of attacks while requiring smaller successes, and, with the current status on recoil gloves being what it is (as in, you should never leave the hab spire without at least 2 pairs of those dirt cheap damage boosting hand warmers), you don't even lose out on damage when dual wielding compared to normal full-auto. Of course, if you need the extra damage, then single shot will be better, but the ease of dual wielding makes it relatively easy to score 2 or more wounding hits, especially if you edge your bets on a weapon with only RoF 2 but more damage rather than an autogun, like overcharged lasguns and latter overcharged hellguns, eventually moving up to storm bolters.

The problem, though, is that once those hits are achieved, they require enough damage to penetrate the defense value. Most of the high RoF weapons have low damage values, and thus aren't going to consistently cause a wound on every hit (and have a harder time of causing the all important multiple wounds) they roll. In fact, the high RoF weapons run the risk of not causing even a single wound, compared to single shot weapons. They pose a greater risk/reward.

The problem, though, is that once those hits are achieved, they require enough damage to penetrate the defense value. Most of the high RoF weapons have low damage values, and thus aren't going to consistently cause a wound on every hit (and have a harder time of causing the all important multiple wounds) they roll. In fact, the high RoF weapons run the risk of not causing even a single wound, compared to single shot weapons. They pose a greater risk/reward.

In my testing, against Defence 7 enemies, I didn't find this to be true. It may be true at higher Defence values, I certainly think it could come to be true with a little tweaking of individual weapon stats and that it's a fine goal to be aiming for, balance and system wise.

But in my experience, against human-level enemies, high ROF fire weapons (talking mostly about Lasguns, Autoguns and Autopistols), particularly when dual-wielded are much better than low ROF weapons (Hand cannons, Long Lases and Sniper Rifles)

The problem, though, is that once those hits are achieved, they require enough damage to penetrate the defense value. Most of the high RoF weapons have low damage values, and thus aren't going to consistently cause a wound on every hit (and have a harder time of causing the all important multiple wounds) they roll. In fact, the high RoF weapons run the risk of not causing even a single wound, compared to single shot weapons. They pose a greater risk/reward.

In my testing, against Defence 7 enemies, I didn't find this to be true. It may be true at higher Defence values, I certainly think it could come to be true with a little tweaking of individual weapon stats and that it's a fine goal to be aiming for, balance and system wise.

But in my experience, against human-level enemies, high ROF fire weapons (talking mostly about Lasguns, Autoguns and Autopistols), particularly when dual-wielded are much better than low ROF weapons (Hand cannons, Long Lases and Sniper Rifles)

Let's assume that you dual wield Lasgun, Autoguns, and Autopistols, spending 2 AP for each attack and that both rolls manage 4 degrees of success (something else to keep in mind: an evade maneuver has an easier time reducing the damage from autofire (each DoS on the Evade removes a hit from Autofire) than it does reducing damage from single shot (need to equal or exceed every degree of success the attack roll had)) for a total of 2 attacks with 4 hits. The target will have 7 defense (3 Toughness, 4 Armor)

Dual Lasguns

First Attack: Chance of 0 hits (6.25%), Chance of 1 hit (25%), Chance of 2 Hits (37.5%), Chance of 3 Hits (25%), Chance of 4 Hits (6.25%)

Chance of getting less than 2 Wounds (31.25%)

Strength of Wound/s (1-5; no effect on target)

Second Attack: Chance of 0 hits (6.25%), Chance of 1 hit (25%), Chance of 2 Hits (37.5%), Chance of 3 Hits (25%), Chance of 4 Hits (6.25%)

Strength of Wound/s: 21-25 (6.25% chance of this); 16-20 (25% chance of this); 11-15 (37.5% chance of this) 6-10 (25% chance of this); 1-5 (6.35% chance of this)

Dual Autoguns

First Attack: Chance of 0 hits (12.96%), Chance of 1 hit (34.56%), Chance of 2 Hits (34.56%), Chance of 3 Hits (15.36%), Chance of 4 Hits (2.56%)

Chance of getting less than 2 Wounds (47.52%)

Strength of Wound/s (1-4; no effect on target)

Second Attack: Chance of 0 hits (12.96%), Chance of 1 hit (34.56%), Chance of 2 Hits (34.56%), Chance of 3 Hits (15.36%), Chance of 4 Hits (2.56%)

Strength of Wound/s: 21-24 (2.56% chance of this); 16-19 (15.36% chance of this); 10-14 (34.56% chance of this) 6-9 (34.56% chance of this); 1-4 (12.96% chance of this)

Dual Autopistols

First Attack: Chance of 0 hits (24.01%), Chance of 1 hit (41.16%), Chance of 2 Hits (26.46%), Chance of 3 Hits (7.56%), Chance of 4 Hits (0.81%)

Chance of getting less than 2 Wounds (65.17%)

Strength of Wound/s (1-3; no effect on target)

Second Attack: Chance of 0 hits (24.01%), Chance of 1 hit (41.16%), Chance of 2 Hits (26.46%), Chance of 3 Hits (7.56%), Chance of 4 Hits (0.81%)

Strength of Wound/s: 21-23 (0.81% chance of this); 16-18 (7.56% chance of this); 10-13 (26.46% chance of this) 6-8 (41.16% chance of this); 1-3 (24.01% chance of this)

So this shows that Lasguns do pack a pretty big punch in this ideal situation (no dodging, no cover) with perfect rolling (keep in mind that when you get to the point of having a ridiculous BS to get Degrees of Success with, the enemies will have better than defense 7). The Autogun does okay, and the Autopistol is taking a pretty big risk for those extra wounds.

Dual Handcannons (2 AP spent on each attack, RoF 1)

First Attack: Chance of 0 hits (0%), Chance of 1 hit (100%)

Strength of Wound 1-10 (possible effect on target)

Second Attack: Chance of 0 hits (0%), Chance of 1 hit (100%)

Strength of Wound: 6-15 (100%)

Chance of dealing 2 Wounds (100%)

Longlas (4AP spent on 1 attack, RoF 2)

First Attack: Chance of 0 hits (0%), Chance of 1 hit (0%), Chance of 2 hits (100%)

Strength of Wound/s 2-11 (possible effect on target)

Chance of dealing 2 Wounds (100%)

Sniper Rifle (1AP to brace, 3 AP on 1 Attack)

First Attack: Chance of 0 hits (0%), Chance of 1 hit (100%)

Strength of Wound 7-16 (Almost guaranteed effect on target)

Dual Handcannons guarantee you two wounds at no risk of failure, with one of them possibly being pretty nasty. A longlas guarantees 2 wounds with no risk of failure, both of them possibly having an effect. The sniper rifle only gives one wound, but is basically guaranteed to have an effect on the target, possibly nasty.

So again we see that the autofire weapons all operate at a risk, with a tiny to small chance of having no effect, a medium chance of having similar effect to the lower RoF weapons, and a small chance of having a greater effect. In addition to starting with no risk, the lower RoF weapons also all mitigate things like cover and evade actions better than the high RoF weapons do. I do agree with you that some tweaking is probably in order (someone better than me at math should do the calculations on what the chances of X wounds being inflicted are for dual wielding auto weapons), but I don't think the balance is completely out of whack. I think the armory changes actually did a lot to make all of the weapons more equally viable.

Nimsim; what you are saying doesn't line up with what happened when I played through things. There are a couple of things I noticed you didn't factor in.

* I'm not sure that starting with the assumption of all attacks hitting is the best approach. I know that this assumption benefits autofire more than single shot, but it's still not reflective of how things go in the game.

* This is a big one; you don't seem to have factored in Righteous Fury; if all 8 attacks from the auto-fire characters hit (which isn't likely, but it the assumption you are currently running on), then they have a better than 50% chance of a Righteous Fury on at least one of them, which will instantly kill any Novice or Elite enemy.

* Another factor is in the scenarios where the enemy is still alive at the end (which in my experience was most of the time), the autofire character will probably have put more Wounds on the enemy, making creating a widening gap in effectiveness in round 2 and later.

I think that doing a mathhammering that takes all these factors into account would be massive pain in the arse; which is part of the reason I ran some Clone Fights in white rooms rather than attempt to mathhammer it myself.

He's specifically talking about the likelihood to cause wounding shots, so your third point isn't entirely valid. Really the only thing I agree that needs to definitely be factored in is Righteous Fury, given that your first point, like you said, favors automatic weapons more anyway.

Well I see the point for really low damage weapons (autopistol or autogun), but, in the current rules, nobody who has a choice uses them over overcharged lasguns. The +2 damage from overcharge is a much bigger bonus for the lasgun or the hellgun than for the long-las, bringing wounding chances into acceptable parameters for enemies under 10 soak (which, considering power armor is 5, is pretty good).

Hellguns essentially perform as well as overcharged lasguns, but, when overcharged themselves, become suitably deadly, and should outperform both the long las and sniper riffle for most enemies that you expect to face on a normal basis.

I will agree that righteous fury is another factor. With my example above, at 8 total hits for autofire weapons, there is a 57% chance of rolling a righteous fury. Bump that up more if you load the ammo that adds tearing into the SP weapons. Of course, this issue with righteous fury has existed in every single game line for this system. I'd personally like to see it revamped to favor single shot weapons. Maybe allow them to add those unused degrees of success to their damage roll to determine righteous fury, or only allow that on accurate weapons (any gun can be made accurate with a red dot laser sight). I can see why lasguns were all given overcharge and made better than sp counterparts (sp has access to custom ammo), but I do agree that they all seem to be much better deals.