Gentlemen,

Dark Heresy is back! After OW Beta will definitely purchase this one in due time, hope that rulebook will be out before Christmas.

Rejoice, burn heretics and squeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

Downloading the beta right now. I've joined a DH campaign very recently, am sure the GM will jump at the chance of putting the new rules to the test. You can expect me to be very active on this board, very soon.

From the weakness of the rules, Omnissiah save us!

Oh so sad that my bank account is dead at the moment need to wait till the first of the month to get a campaign running. Look forward to testing the new system.

The Inquisition will be monitoring this thread with great interest. Kill Team's dispatched to assist with anything too dangerous.

I think I just burst bloodvessel in my Brain. Feeling light headed and tingling in my limbs. Haven't felt like this since Black Industries released DH 1st edition.

There is no place for the weakwilled or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small.

Kill the Mutant, Burn the Heretic, Purge the Xenos.

Despite an empty bank account, I've got no choice but to purchase this in order to contribute.

I just hope there shall remain an easy-to-use way to combine DH with other products of the line

Ran a few dozen WH40k sessions by now, and more than once we intergated both RT and DW features into the game (not to mention few cases of BC, when certain inquisitorial acolytes went rogue). When White Wolf remade World of Darkness all those years ago, it was one hell of an exercise to put two editions together

Nice - I liked DH1 , but by now it looked a bit out of place compared to the newer systems. Hope I'll be able to activate my old group for some playtesting - the timeframe is a bit tight, but we'll see what's possible...

I just hope there shall remain an easy-to-use way to combine DH with other products of the line

Ran a few dozen WH40k sessions by now, and more than once we intergated both RT and DW features into the game (not to mention few cases of BC, when certain inquisitorial acolytes went rogue). When White Wolf remade World of Darkness all those years ago, it was one hell of an exercise to put two editions together

The core mechanic is roughly the same (d100 roles). There is an altered method of calculating DoSs/DoFs, but that should be trivial. The skill system has been reworked. Combat seems to have had an overhaul completely (there are now things called action points). Alot of the core concepts are still here, but I don't think its going to be possible to equate DH2.0 characters to some XP value of DH/RT/DW/BC/OW character.

Alot of the core concepts are still here, but I don't think its going to be possible to equate DH2.0 characters to some XP value of DH/RT/DW/BC/OW character.

You're right. DH2.0 isn't an iterative set of rules that take from the previous rule set (Only War) and update them as every 40K RPG has done so far. This is a completely different set of base rules that lack any sort of compatibility or similarity outside of the fact that they use d100's and use the same name for things (Skills, Talents, etc.).

Think of it less as Black Crusade to Only War and more 40K 2nd Ed to 40K 3rd Ed.

BYE

I'm calling it now, if this is popular they will make 2nd editions of the other lines. *sigh* The cycle is beginning fast.

Can anybody tell me why - apart from just wanting us to buy new books - they haven't just updated it to OW rules, like the VAST majority of the community wanted, so that we could have a unified system?

Please note that I am not saying that the rules are bad by themselves.

They are just not what we wanted.

Can anybody tell me why - apart from just wanting us to buy new books - they haven't just updated it to OW rules, like the VAST majority of the community wanted, so that we could have a unified system?

Please note that I am not saying that the rules are bad by themselves.

They are just not what we wanted.

They do a very good job of creating a system that covers all walks of life in the Imperium in DH2 vs. what DH, RT, and OW did. For any human, non-astartes character, it seems to provide a fairly good baseline of options.

Essentially you pick homeworld, a "background" (IG, Arbites, outcast, administratum, etc.), and then "role" (warrior, chirugen, sage, etc.). Its possible to pick seemingly conflicting backgrounds + roles (i.e. the Imperial Guardsmen can take Chirugen role, and be a combat medic).

On the whole this systems seems to allow for a fairly wide array of characters. Limited mainly by gear

EDIT: My point is, that Only War could have been written as a supplement book for this system, unlike how Only War was determined to have not been able to work as a supplement for DH (thus resulting in the entire system). Which I think is far more desirable to have as a system than a merely updated OW.

Well, I have owned the Beta rules for about 10 minutes. I already hate the combat system. The damage system alone is enough to make me want my money back and certainly advise anyone asking me not to buy this game under any circumstances. However, I'm still reading through things.

The core mechanic is roughly the same (d100 roles). There is an altered method of calculating DoSs/DoFs, but that should be trivial. The skill system has been reworked. Combat seems to have had an overhaul completely (there are now things called action points). Alot of the core concepts are still here, but I don't think its going to be possible to equate DH2.0 characters to some XP value of DH/RT/DW/BC/OW character.

Took a quick look at the book btw - the rules are really fun, but a bit of a "thing in itself" (IMHO, of course). That's not a bad thing, mind you, but to actually combine the rules with original DH or even OW... another painful experience indeed

Skill system overhaul isn't the problem actually - they are close to what we could find in BC / OW... even more generalized, but it's not a bad thing. Ability to use different characteristics for each skill fully makes up for a relatively small number of skills themselves.

Characteristic advances seem to be a bit overpowered at first glance: "the lifetime total number of advances purchased in each individual characteristic cannot exceed the character's rank". Logically it means a character can buy up to 10 advances per characterstic (since level 10 seem to be a max one).

However if we consider the "25+ best 2 ouf of 3d10" rule, the max characteristic value we're potentially looking at here would be 95 (25+20+5*10), which is actually more or less in line with what we can squeeze out of DH1 with a bit of luck. And the EXP cost of such a boost would be tremendous, so I guess it's OK.

The Talent tree... it's really different from what we can find in other WH40k games. Some talents share common names and / or effects, but there are a lot of differences too. The most notable one (again IMHO) is that the former Lore skills are now Talents tied to Remembrance skill. Makes more sense actually, as it allows to avoid overcrowding of the skill tree, which was often the case in DH1, especially in investigation-oriented parties.

And just as you said, the combat system is reworked... can't comment on what I see now though; it's late into the night and the brain's not working properly

Well, I have owned the Beta rules for about 10 minutes. I already hate the combat system. The damage system alone is enough to make me want my money back and certainly advise anyone asking me not to buy this game under any circumstances.

I'd like to hear some specificis.

We had pretty low level characterd dodging on a 70+ in the test games we played. It made combat a bit of a wiff-fest.

BYE

Well, I have owned the Beta rules for about 10 minutes. I already hate the combat system. The damage system alone is enough to make me want my money back and certainly advise anyone asking me not to buy this game under any circumstances.

I'd like to hear some specificis.

Basically, each time you get hit, you still apply TB+Armour to come up with a defence score, and you subtract that from the damage dealt. If that still deals damage, you take 1 wound. However, a "wound" now is a result on a table. Basically, if you take say... a lasgun shot that deals 15 damage, and you have 3 TB and 4 AP, you take 8 damage (lets say to the torso to keep it easy). For each distinct wound you have, add +5 to the result you take for this wound (so if you have say 2 wounds already), this is going to result in an 18 on the wound table.

18 energy on the wound table results in suffering the "Burning" condition (no idea what that does yet).

Basically, they expanded the critical tables, and put them in play on each shot. Now any hit is going to result in some sort of condition. Fortunately, the conditions in the lower range are more manageable than what crit wounds were.

Apparently, you don't even have a "wounds" stat anymore. You just die when the condition you suffer says so (and it always gets worse with more wounds).

Critical wounds can be caused by Righteous Fury, and force a +10 modifier on subsequent wounds than a +5. Also they're harder to heal. Also apparently they outright kill NPCs.

I see why LuciusT doesn't like it. But I'm entirely willing to see it in play.

EDIT: Huh... range penalties/bonuses seem to be missing. It just says ranged weapons can shoot up to their listed range.

I see why LuciusT doesn't like it. But I'm entirely willing to see it in play.

Yeah, I think you do. Anything that slows down an already slow part of game play, like combat, is going to be something my players hate... and having to dig through 9 PAGES of critical hit tables and then look up the specific effects of the conditions so applied every flipping time someone gets hit will slow combat to a crawl. Between that and Action Points, I really do not understand who did the initial playtesting on this game, but they need a good talking to IMO.

You're right. There's no wound count any more. You don't lose or gain wounds in the same way as the other games. You gain damage conditions based upon the amount of damage done vs your damage sink.

Thankfully you don't use these tables for everyone. Lower level enemies just die (thankfully, otherwise combat takes hours!).

BYE

Thanks for the explanation. Getting there sounds as fiddly as ever but I do like the idea of combats becoming more lethal with damage taken. The idea of taking discrete wounds puts me in mind of WFRP 2E.

I was hoping FFG would take the opportunity to drop some of the classic GW mechanics BL shoehorned into DH ... and that they have dutifully shoveled into every subsequent iteration. But it looks like that baggage is still weighing things down.

I really do not understand who did the initial playtesting on this game, but they need a good talking to IMO.

I did part of the initial play testing on this game, and you'd be mistaken if you think we can radically shift the entire structure of a new set of rules. Play test feedback that says "The old system was better, go back to that" isn't really feed back. It's not even useful. I don't disagree with what you said about the rules slowing combat down, but as you keep reading you'll see that you're not looking up conditions on every hit.

BYE

I really do not understand who did the initial playtesting on this game, but they need a good talking to IMO.

I did part of the initial play testing on this game, and you'd be mistaken if you think we can radically shift the entire structure of a new set of rules. Play test feedback that says "The old system was better, go back to that" isn't really feed back. It's not even useful. I don't disagree with what you said about the rules slowing combat down, but as you keep reading you'll see that you're not looking up conditions on every hit.

BYE

I don't have any illusions about them being about to make major changes at this point. However, they asked my opinion and they're going to get it.

We will playtest these rules and submit comments, but based on my initial read through I am not impressed.

Two sessions into a new campaign and then this..!

So, since I start with 4 AP, want to fire my autopistol, that costs me 4 AP.

Let's say I get shot back during the same rounds, cost me 1 AP to dodge so I can't dodge? Do I understand it correctly?