I don't have my Rulebook handy, so I'll leave the first two questions to someone else to answer. As far as Gernades, they still have to overcome the TB and Armour of the members of a Horde in order to inflict Magnitude damage, so, no, they wouldn't harm a Horde of Marines any more than they would effect an individual, despite the increased number of 'hits'. As far as scattering, I don't have any problem with the standard 1d5 meters from the target (to save time, I use the 'point' of the d10 used to determine the distance as the indicator of scatter direction)- if you increase the distance, there is less chance of it bouncing back and hitting the thrower- and where's the fun in that…?

When we use grenades against a horde our GM first makes us roll the 2d10 as if it was a normal opponent rather than a horde , if the damage rolled overcomes the enemies armour and toughness, then it causes the stated blast damage to the horde, against chaos marines its rarely gonna do any damage unless you roll well on the dice.

Adeptus-B said:

I think he's referring to that "Sudden Death" bit where what would be the minor injury for a player character means a kill in a Horde.

But yeah, as I said, just scale up the Magnitude. The Horde would probably become too OP if the Magnitude ends up being the number of opponents multiplicated by an average CSM's Wounds, though, so the trick is to find the sweet spot somewhere in-between 1 and ~20.

Lynata has it right xD. While it is true that the grenade would have to bypass the Chaos Space Marine's TB+Armor, if it even did so by 1, it would kill SIX of them (well, not technically, but it would reduce the horde's magnitude by 6. Is this right? {1 for dealing damage, 4 for Blast and 1 for being an Explosive?}). That's ridiculous…

@ Lynata: I've actually contemplated having my horde prep a "Grenade Volley" at my players, but I'm thinking I'll save that ace in the hole for another excursion >:3.

Could I have had the Champion use a Krak Grenade (3d10+4 X, Pen 6)? Initially I thought they could only be used against vehicles or bunkers, per pg 150, " … punch holes in armoured targets such as vehicles or bunkers… impractical for use against most infantry or moving targets ." I misread that and assumed it could only be used against those types of targets, but you can use them against infantry, right? Would that have affected the Librarian though? I know it says it doesn't have a blast radius, but if the Librarian is towering over him, he is less than a foot away and might be caught in the resulting detonation…

So when a unit fails their BS check for throwing a grenade, does it travel 1d10 for direction, then 1d5 metres in rolled direction from the originating unit? It isn't really clear when I read it in the Core book, but that is what you guys seem to be implying and if that is the case, then this alone answers my question!

Q #2) I should clarify that, "Outnumbered" should be referred to as, "Ganging Up." My apologies (per page 248).

Still need answers to the initial two questions, but I appreciate all the responses thus far!

Maleficus_Sadi said:

I suppose in that case I'd give the Horde a Magnitude of 8 x [number of CSMs]. It's obviously a very awkward "solution" as this is approaching an individual enemy's level of Wounds, but the only way to avoid Frag one-hit kills if you're playing RAW. The downside is that this makes frag grenades potentially more lethal against Marines than, say, a boltgun. The bolter will of course have a larger chance to cause any damage at all, but the frag will hurt more if you happen to roll above AP+TB.

Can't win 'em all, and the only other alternative is to ditch Horde rules entirely and come up with something more sane yourself…
(coincidentally, I did come up with something for NPC squads some time ago, if you're interested - an addon-system not to represent large hordes of enemies but rather small groups of ~4 warriors, which may be suitable for enemies such as CSMs)

Anyways, yes, I think you could have let the Champion use a krak, and that it would have damaged the Librarian at least somewhat if he was in CC range in spite of not having a blast radius - or at the very least thrown him back a few meters. Realism does not have to be disregarded entirely regardless of what the rules say on paper, and besides a krak can cause multiple kills in the Horde rules, so there's your precedent.
At the same time, I don't think it was bad that you had him use a frag either. Rule of cool applies, and I hope none of your players would object to this having been a cool idea.

First I will begin by stating:

1 Horde Magnitude does NOT equal 1 enemy character.
For instance, 10 average human soldiers should represent a 20 or 30 magnitude horde. More powerful characters would represent a larger magnitude per character. As the characters in the horde are injured they become less able to fight through injury AND death, not just death.

Q1: Using medicae is not "healing on its own". Medicae is a doctor putting coagulant sealant, artifical skin, stitches, etc. onto a wound to stop it bleeding and keep it from killing you, possibly giving you some mobility back (such as reseting a broken bone or reseating a dislocated shoulder, both injuries which rarely heal all on their own). Natural healing and medical attention are seperate.
WITHOUT medical attention it takes 1 week to heal 1 point of critical damage (pretty sure SM have a talent which shortens this).
WITH medical attention this damage can be healed much quicker, including the use of first aid.
Using current rules for medicae treatment a character can be injured enough times where first aid can no longer heal his damage, therfore necesitating rest+extended care treatment.

Wounds you fail to heal with first aid, may not be healed with first aid. If a marine looses 15 wounds in a fight then gets 10 wounds healed by an apothecary, the 5 wounds he is still missing CAN NOT be healed with first aid, and CAN ONLY be healed through natural healing. Next combat he looses 8 wounds, gets healed 7, now the marine has 6 wounds which CAN NOT be healed with first aid. Damage a marine enough times and that critical and heavy damage can become untreatable, requiring rest.

Q2: As stated on page 360 of the core rulebook, hordes never gain bonuses for ganging up. To represent their numbers, characters attacked by a horde CAN NOT dodge or parry attacks from the horde (the single elite hiding in the horde is another thing altogether) and the horde can make ALL of its attacks against EVERY enemy it has engaged. This means a horde made of characters which have 4 melee attacks is engaging 5 space marines. That single horde makes 4 melee attacks against each of the 5 marines (for 20 total attacks), and the marines CAN NOT dodge or parry any of those attacks.

Q3: When damaging a horde a blast weapon (the grenade) does a number of hits to the horde equal to its Blast rating. A grenade with blast 5 X damage type hits a horde 6 times (blast 5 + 1 from X). Technically each of those hits must roll seperately to see if it does more damage than the TB+armour of any single character in the horde (although many player groups find ways of speeding this up). Each hit which does 1+ damage about the target's TB+armour deals 1 point in magnitude damage (see preface at start of this post). If the grenade does not or can not beat the target's TB+armour then it does not deal any magnitude damage.

Q3a: Throwing balls is not very difficult, the human male brain is practically designed around the math and motor skills necessary to do this. When you throw a baseball at your friend, if you miss him its usually not by much. Same principle with grenades, missing the guy 50ft in front of you is rarely going to have the grenade land more than a couple of feet away from him, definately not going to have it land 20ft behind the thrower (No one would give someone who throws this poorly a grenade anyways).

When a grenade misses (unless it jams, then you gotta roll to see if its a dud or if it blows up in your hand), it scatters from the intended target and definately NOT the thrower.

About "sudden death": SD is used for unimportant characters (not hordes, they use horde rules). The chaff of the enemy army. It is meant to simplify battles with the low ranking minions. Once you get them to 0 wounds, they die. No Crit damage tracking or damage affects for the 25 traitor guardsman, they just die when they run out of wounds.

Hordes throwing grenades work like shooting ranged attacks. The number of attacks they make is determined by their magnitude (20 mag horde makes 2 ranged attacks, 40 mag horde makes 4). Each of these attacks gains the +1d10 per mag level (up to +2d10 MAX). Therefore a 20 mag horde chucking grenades with normal 2d10 damage can make 2 grenade attacks a turn, which each deal 4d10 damage (3-8 grenadesblowing up at your feet at the same time will probly hurt more than 1).

herichimo said:

Absolutely correct! I totally forgot the actual wording of the rule, good thing you made me check up. This does reduce the problem presented by frag grenades significantly, as they do not have a very good chance of causing much damage after armour and TB have been factored in.

herichimo said:

Ah, that wasn't referring to the specific perk (since we're not talking about individual minions), but more of the general application of the term across product lines. In essence, the fact that enemies suddenly become much less resilient once you group them into Hordes (by essentially having them sacrifice Wounds and becoming more susceptible to certain types of weapons).

There seems to be much variation in how exactly the various GMs assign Magnitude scores to Hordes, and I have even seen "1 Enemy = 1 Magnitude" on this forum too (applied to IG soldiers I think). The rulebook unfortunately does not provide a lot of information on how to gauge this (which may be good for GM improvisation, but bad for talking about rules), aside from the small table and the one example of a "large mob" Mag34 Horde. Obviously, it is open to interpretation what we think qualifies as a "large mob".

herichimo said:

Check, that is why I said, "Well not technically, but it will reduce the Horde's Magnitude by 6." Honestly though, my qualm remains the same (and I think I'll just have to learn to deal with it or try house-ruling something due to the way hordes are played).

herichimo said:

The wording in the book is a bit contradictory, but your explanation makes sense. I have to ask these silly questions due to some major rule-lawyers in my party, so thank you!

herichimo said:

I have no idea how I missed that… smh…

herichimo said:

That is what logic would dictate, but I couldn't find it specifically stating that in the rulebook. No worries though, I'm not terribly interested in a page number, as you seem to always be right on the money, herichimo! Thanks again for your clarifications!

@ Lynata: Since I've been playing a lot of Dawn of War, I was actually considering having the squad face off against a few "smaller" hordes (but really enemy squads) of 4-8 CSM's. Given the Horde rules though, that wouldn't really fit the bill… so I'm actually very interested in hearing your take on "squad hordes(?)"!

Thematic wise, I'm still a bit confused how an Astartes Fragmentation Grenade suddenly turned into a "horde-only-killer." You can't really use it to flush out enemies from cover (a primary usage of a grenade) OR deal lethal damage to a singular target. I was factoring in the Armor+TB in my original post, but it still goes to say that if I roll 17 points of damage on my frag, 16 points of that damage being absorbed by CSM modifiers and then 1 damage being left over, but suddenly reducing a horde's magnitude by 6, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense…

Does this mean frags are only really useable versus hordes and Krak grenades should be saved for high-armored opponents? It seems to me that suddenly Krak grenades are the only viable grenade (for damaging purposes), but I'm not sure they are intended to be used in such a way. The rules seem to repeatedly iterate, " The powerful detonations do not produce a blast effect however, making them impractical for use against most infantry or moving targets." Really? Impractical against infantry and moving targets? Um… why? It says you can throw them, so I don't understand how its any different than a regular Fragmentation grenade, with an insanely better damage and penetration in exchange for a blast radius… sounds like a great trade to me (in any instance when you're not fighting a horde)!

From the 40k wiki, which is quoting the Warhammer 40k: 6th Edition Rulebook: " Typically they [Krak Grenades] are attached directly onto vehicles or fortifications with magnetic, adhesive or physical clamps, maximising their effect on the target. They can also be used against monstrous creatures (such as the larger Tyranid bioforms), attaching them to the creature's carapace before detonation. " So… why can my players throw them around all willy-nilly? Isn't that what they are supposed to do with fragmentation grenades?

Also, from the First Founding supplement, under "Tyrannic War Veteran, Pg 70": Grenadier : Amongst the best-known of the stratagems devised by the Tyrannic War Veterans, the use of Krak Grenades to slay monstrous foes in melee is a risky but rewarding tactic. The Battle-Brother may use a Krak Grenade as his chosen weapon for any Charge Attack, Standard Attack or All-Out Attack action, suffering a –20 penalty to hit due to the difficulty of the attack. However, if the attack roll succeeds, the Battle-Brother deals the normal damage of an Astartes Krak Grenade (with its associated Pen value), adding +1 to the Pen for every Degree of Success on the attack roll (to represent the grenade being thrust into vulnerable points in the creature’s carapace.

Doesn't this imply that Krak Grenades cannot be thrown? How is a -20 penalty melee charge into a "monstrous foe" more advantageous than just throwing the fraking grenade?! Yes, yes, I get that he gets the pen, but my point remains >_> …

My apologies if I sound like I am being difficult; I suppose the entire grenade system is just a bit mind-boggling (thematic-wise) to me…

Maleficus_Sadi said:

I've "published" an early draft here , and some other forum members provided some useful suggestions to improve it. I still have to update and rewrite it as this was part of a larger thing that I've not worked on for some time, but I believe you could easily take what's in that thread and make it usable.

Maleficus_Sadi said:

As usual with most (all?) 40k wikis, they often claim various sources, yet rarely directly adhere to them - since most often the writers/editors attempt to shoehorn several conflicting pieces of information into a single article. In short: the 6E rulebook says no such thing, and indeed clearly states "when a unit with krak grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon" .
Their throwing range is given as 8 inches, the same as frag grenades.

Be careful with the usage of such sources, however. In this case, they coincide (as I've thrown a few kraks in past DH games myself), but generally there are things that work differently between the Tabletop rules and the Deathwatch RPG, just like there are differences in the fluff as we talked about in the other thread. Indeed, even between FFG's various 40k games, rules have changed as the system "evolved", although it was never something as silly as barring grenades from being thrown.

Small sidenote: krak grenades actually have a blast radius in GW's Inquisitor RPG (see page 71, grenades & explosives) - it's just so small that it would not register in the scope of the tabletop (0.5 yards compared to the 3 yards of a frag). In that game, however, it would still suffice to harm someone in close combat with the target!

Well, I'm still not entirely happy with the system, but I guess I'll just "roll with it," even though it doesn't quite make sense in my head… xD

Thanks for all the replies and insight (:

Maleficus_Sadi said:

Referring to the RAW Horde rules, or my concept? Hey, you don't have to use the latter if you don't like it! From where I'm standing, just about any rule - regardless of origin - is a matter of preferences in that people will either like or dislike it, and it would be arrogant if the creator would simply expect that other players just jump on the same train of thoughts, rather than to hope for it. I didn't hold back with criticism of some of FFG's rules in the past myself, too (one being discussed in this very thread).

However, if you have questions or something is unclear, just ask them here or contact me via Private Message.

Regarding Frags vs. Kraks,

Frag grenades are anti-personnel and do this incredibly well, taking large chunks out of hordes and allowing the kill-team to engage soft targets behind cover.

Krak grenades are anti-tank grenades like the RPG-43 and it's ilk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_grenade small blast radius (or shaped charge) and therefore correspondingly harder to hit with, but with great penetrating power.

Krak's are often planted on/attatched to the target to ensure they do maximum damage, but unlike a Melta Bomb they don't HAVE to be and are small enough to be thrown like normal grenades.

The problem with using them against Astrates is that their wargear is designed to protect them from anti-personnel weapons, making them effectively immune to frags, and they are surprisingly athletic and nimble, meaning they can be hard to hit with a krak grenade. This is a feature, not a bug. If you want a grenade to be a threat against an Astartes use a plasma grenade, or better yet an EMP grenade! Nothing ruins your day like your armour, cybernetics, and weapons shutting down. Especially if the kroot/cultists/whetever throwing them around are immune to the effects.

Regarding Hordes,

The rules were never designed for hordes of marines. Elite and Master type enemies tend to be designed to fight the players on an even-ish footing. The horde rules were there to make large number of weaker troops level enemies an actual threat to players not to make tougher enemies more dangerous. The rules completely break down when applied to higher-tier enemies like Marines, or Tau Battlesuits, leading to odd situations like those mentioned in this thread. As a rule of thumb, if a bolter or chainsword can kill an NPC in one or two hits you can horde it, if not then it should keep it's wounds.

A squad system could work to speed things up in combat and ease the GM's workload. It's not something I've tried, other than having similar groups of NPCs act on the same initiative roll, but it's definately a workable idea.

Thanks Wonder Lemming, that thorough description really enlightened me! Not sure why I didn't think of using a plasma grenade instead of a Frag/Krak (probably because it requires renown and it didn't occur to me to give renown-required weapons to my minions; but now I shall!). Thematic wise, it makes a lot more sense when you lay everything out on the table like that. And actually, I'm laying out the setup for an Eldar/Tau ambush up ahead using the haywire grenade and I'm interested to see how my players handle it .

If the Horde system becomes so broken when using Elites, I'm not sure why they would allow you to do so in the first place, but I'll keep your rule of thumb in mind as it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for all the help!

@ Lynata: No, no, I definitely meant the RAW! I have glazed over the thread, but haven't had enough free time to sit down and give it a thorough in-depth read. But I plan to do so before the next meet so I can see how a hammered-out squad of CSM's would play like. I'll keep you posted (:

Gotcha! Just keep in mind that the squads operating by this ruleset are, in a way, still "cannonfodder" compared to normal player characters and boss NPCs, just not as cheap as Hordes. For a test run I would therefore suggest going with a squad of 4 CSMs, and have their leader as an independent enemy using the standard rules.

Ideally, the CSM leader could challenge one or two of your players to a duel whilst his squad engages the rest of the party, or alternatively this "miniboss" is so badass (or berzerk) that he attempts to take on your whole team by himself, but with his squad in the background providing fire support "pin-prick" style.

Why don't you just use the CSMs as independent characters? Hordes are for fighting dozens of Termagants, crazed hordes of axe-wielding mutants, hundreds of Guardsmen. Squads of Fire Warriors are the upper limit (and a Horde of Fire Warriors will by the way turn space marines into ash).

EDIT: Just roll damage for each hit of the frag grenade separately (as was done in Dark Heresy for individuals). It is absurd that it would do equal damage to everyone in the blast radius. Although of course this slows things down.

You can't really use it to flush out enemies from cover (a primary usage of a grenade) OR deal lethal damage to a singular target. I was factoring in the Armor+TB in my original post, but it still goes to say that if I roll 17 points of damage on my frag, 16 points of that damage being absorbed by CSM modifiers and then 1 damage being left over, but suddenly reducing a horde's magnitude by 6, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense…

Allow me to preface this by saying that I didn`t read any of the comments past this before writing my response. So, sorry in advance if this is addressed. Also, sorry in advance if it sucks.

Why not just add the blast damage of the explosive weapon to the final damage tally? In the above example the CSM would take at least 5 damage, and while that is not necessarily game-changing, it would make their asses think twice about taking many more grenades.

I totally agree with you - 1 damage against one elite enemy, but 6 magnitude reduction against a horde doesn`t make a whole ton of sense.

Frags aren't meant to take on MEQs, they're designed for lightly-armored infantry solos or hordes. You want to crack a MEQ, use a...(wait for it) krak grenade. Not every tool is right for every job.

bull. I am going to throw frag grenades at everything always. And I will be wearing a cowboy hat when I do it. And I will have a stripper on each arm.