A Space Marine using a weapon in each hand normally has a -20 penalty to hit with each weapon- but what about flamers, which require no roll to hit? One of my players recently tried this trick; since I think it's grossly unfair for some weapons to have a penalty but not others when used in the same way, I 'house-ruled' that two flamers used simultaneously would express the -20 penalty as a bonus to the target's chance to move out of the path of the flame, which irritated the player in question. Am I missing some official rule regarding this situation? Is there a better way to keep two flamers used at once from being a violation of the 'spirit' of the rules imposing a penalty against using two weapons at once?

If the flamers are targeting two different archs of fire, than I think your house rule would be fair and realistic. If however the flamers are targeting the same area I would think that it would make it more difficult to avoid catching fire. Perhaps tell the player that your ruling stands for seperate areas but for a single area the targets take a -10 penatly to avoid catching fire.

I think I prefer the OP's idea.

Trying to hold onto two fire hoses shooting streams of flaming liquid is probably a little more difficult with only 1 hand.

I think it's a fair approach.

Using a flamer unskilled gives the same bonus to the Agility roll as would be inflicted on the unskilled users BS test so that's a something of a precident.

And in using both you could either cover a wider area or force targets in the same sized area to test agility twice (allbeit in both cases with a +20 to their agility tests).

And considering ( and I'm sure the player did ) the damage a flamer can do to hordes and the fact that an SM can use two basic weapons without penalty (not that that specificall applies) it seems to be a big loophole for mondo damage without needing a TWW talent.

Which I don't think should be encouraged.

When using two flamers, you should allow your players to spend a Fate Point as a free action to cue a guitar solo.

EDIT: That was originally a joke, but now I think I'm about to whip out Audacity, pull some solos, and make a really stupid House Rule.

Now that I think about it, I wonder: should simultaneous overlapping flame templates cause damage twice, or is a jet of fire a jet of fire, regardless of how many nozzels it is coming from?

EDIT: Space Marines are naturally Ambidextrous, so without Two-Weapon Wielder, non-Flame/Spray weapons would normally suffer a penalty of -10 non-dominant hand usage, but only when making single attacks, yes? Multiple attacks (aka Two Weapon Fighting) cannot be made unless a PC possesses the appropriate Two-Weapon Wielder Talent, yes? Am I interpreting both of these correctly?

If so, with regards to a BS penalty expressing as an Ag Test bonus, this would only be the case if a single attack was made, and in each case you have to consider the Ambidextrous and Two-Weapon Wielder Talents.

With Ambidextrous: D hand is -10, non-D hand is -10
With Ambidextrous and T-WW: D hand is +/-0, non-D hand is -10

Perhaps, if the attacking PC (or NPC) is Ambidextrous only, you could allow the use of two Flame/Spray weapons to cover a 45-degree AoE out to range, rather than 30 degrees, but targets receive a bonus to their Ag Tests equal to the worst possible BS penalty (in this case +10)? This would mean the number of targets caught in the AoE is potentially higher when combat takes place at the individual/squad level, though they have a greater chance of avoiding Catching Fire, but there is no additional affect when used on Hordes (because they cannot Dodge). Being Ambidextrous and possessing T-WW would drop the bonus to target Ag Tests to +/-0.

One thought that came to mind when considering this was the Independent Targeting Talent; normally, a PC without IT cannot fire on targets with more than 10 meters distance between them. Accessing the Core Rules only, IT is a Rank 7 Assault Marine Talent and a Rank 7 Tactical Marine Talent. You could further limit the abuse of multiple Flame/Spray weapon effectiveness (as far as RAW) by first limiting Elite Advances, and second by assuming PCs without IT (such as a Rank 1 Assault Marine with Two-Weapon Wielder [ballistic]) may use two Flame/Spray weapons to cover a 45-degree arc out to range rather than 30 degrees, without penalties to Ag Tests for a larger AoE (because the Marine just isn't that Talented) and Damage being calculated as if it were one weapon (essentially one hit), and PCs with IT may cover the same AoE (45 degrees out to range), with targets making Agility Tests at -10 to reflect the larger AoE (because the Marine is that Talented), but Damage is calculated as individual weapons (more than one hit).

So, a Space Marine PC using multiple Flame/Spray weapons would have to be Ambidextrous (given), and possess T-WW and Independent Targeting if he wanted to reduce his targets to -10 Ag Tests.

Another thng to consider when trying to resolve this issue: Ballistic Mechadendrites (for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader) and the Astartes Servo-Harness. That's potentially three Flamers… A Tech-Marine could use a Free Action to fire his Servo-Harness Flamer, and his Two-Weapon Wielder (Ballistic) Talent to fire two Flamers, all in one Turn. Using Astartes Flamers, that's (RAW) 15+3d5 hits on a Horde, or three potential hits on each individual target within the AoE (which ramps up the dice rolling for Ag Tests).

RAW, this is a GM nightmare.
Actually, I think I've managed to confuse myself…I think my math is off somewhere.

EDIT: I'm sure this particular overkill tactic is not mentioned in the Codex Astartes.

Watch Commander: "So, you've Requisitioned nine Flamers and a Missile Launcher?"

Kill-Team Leader (with sh!t-eating grin): "Yep!"

Using two weapons without ambidexterous or two weapon weilder is a -20 / -40 to the attack role.

With ambidex talent the penalty is -20 / -20

With ambidex and two weapon weilder the penalty is -10 / -10.

With ambidex, two weapon weilder and gunslinger with pistol class weapons the penalty is 0 / 0.

So if you translate that to bonuses to agility tests the best you can do with two flamers is two attacks with agility tests at +10 rather than one at +0 (without clense and purge though). With gunslinger you could have two hand for two lighter handflamer attacks with no penalty, which is the SoB Seraphim set up.

I belive having a weapon on a mechandrite is another off hand attack. With so a Techmarine with TWW and Gunslinger could fire three hand-flamers per turn with a +0 modifier on the agility tests.

A simple expedient I use in my campaign to limit the potential insanity of dual wielding is that you may only make an attack with each weapon on your turn if they are pistol or one handed melee weapons. That is, you can carry two basic weapons one each hand. You can fire them one handed. You can even alternate, firing one one turn and firing the other the next, but you cannot dual wield basic weapons. This is important because if you think flamers are bad, wait until someone thinks to carry two stormbolters loaded with metal storm ammunition (or anything really, two stormbolters is horrible enough).

Togath said:

Sold! I'll House-Rule that only Pistol-Class firearms can be fired simultaneously , and nip the inevitable future abuses in the bud.