Point of clarification and looking for thoughts…. The conspiracy doesn't like CVA because she is kind to the poor and they have a " Better a despotic republic than and enlightened monarchy" ideology? This this how you are all framing her?
Clothilde Von Alptraum
Johann Rowlocks said:
Point of clarification and looking for thoughts…. The conspiracy doesn't like CVA because she is kind to the poor and they have a " Better a despotic republic than and enlightened monarchy" ideology? This this how you are all framing her?
It seemed to me more like that she was someone they couldn't control who had a good shot at the Elector Count seat.
The Conspiracy aren't driven by Ideology, they are driven by greed. All the things they want to implement affect their bottom line.
Of course, there could be a personal reason the BC is interested in her …
Yes, I think as presented Chlotilde represents an intelligent, adept political figure. She appears (as presented) to be of the "noblesse oblige" type of traditional noble who takes all that stuff about duty and being kind to the little people seriously (of course it could all be an act to one degree or another).
She wants "what decent nobles want" - the Elector Count issue resolved with a sound choice, the Empire Strong (she spent part of her youth in the royal court in Altdorf, that comes from novel in which she appears briefly, Beasts in Velvet) and has an eye to her own advancement in that course. She is independent (witness her refusal to marry off easily, in Old World terms being in her late 20's she is letting it go on a bit).
The Conspiracy wants the Empire weak, a "controllable" choice for Elector Count. So it soesn't like her. They don't want the same thing, she's not controllable.
Leaving aside "is she good and they evil" it can be as simple as "she's a traditional centralist and they are radical decentralists".
I do think the outer Conspiracy can be seen as a political movement - chaffing as the blinkered shortsighted dead hand of noblility, Sigmarite church etc. on society and the advance of men of talent and exploration of knowledge.
As to the BC, depending on who he is she's just a chess piece in the way, a silly woman interfering in men's business or she's also someone who turned him down and has irked him personally.
Of course, as observed, she doesn't make a bad Black Cowl herself….
I also see the "conspiracy" as a political movement - a mirroring of the European experience of the disempowering of the aristocracy through the economic and thus political rise of the bourgeoisie. This being Warhammer, with its particular bent that any change plays into the hand of Chaos - a "traditional aristocratic conservative" nightmare backed by actual supernatural ruinous powers - we are left with either perpetual social injustice or complete ravening, mutating, chaotic social destruction. Grim and gritty.
But there also has to be the possibility of hope, and both the conspiracy and a character like Clothilde present two different paths to it. I think you are right Doc to see greed as a part of the Conspiracy's MO, this is only a part of the picture. While the liberalism espoused by the historical bourgeoisie always profited themselves, it did lead to a more just and open social order. So both profit and justice are the enticements that would lead the Black Cowl into their arms ( and those ultimately of Tzeentch). I believe Baerfaust fits the bill best in my game to be the BC, his story lends itself to a more political motivation. I am working on more concrete reason for the work put into her elimination. I currently think that he believes that she is dangerous to the plans of the Conspiracy because she has a developed sense of justice, and that it is popularly known. He might even have admired her before his corruption overcame the intial moral impulses that drove his secret rebellion. He feels she could create a false sense that the Empire is capable of being just and moral. He knows better than that, and thus she must be sacrificed. The ends justify the means and all that.
Johann Rowlocks said:
I also see the "conspiracy" as a political movement - a mirroring of the European experience of the disempowering of the aristocracy through the economic and thus political rise of the bourgeoisie. This being Warhammer, with its particular bent that any change plays into the hand of Chaos - a "traditional aristocratic conservative" nightmare backed by actual supernatural ruinous powers - we are left with either perpetual social injustice or complete ravening, mutating, chaotic social destruction. Grim and gritty.
But there also has to be the possibility of hope, and both the conspiracy and a character like Clothilde present two different paths to it. I think you are right Doc to see greed as a part of the Conspiracy's MO, this is only a part of the picture. While the liberalism espoused by the historical bourgeoisie always profited themselves, it did lead to a more just and open social order. So both profit and justice are the enticements that would lead the Black Cowl into their arms ( and those ultimately of Tzeentch). I believe Baerfaust fits the bill best in my game to be the BC, his story lends itself to a more political motivation. I am working on more concrete reason for the work put into her elimination. I currently think that he believes that she is dangerous to the plans of the Conspiracy because she has a developed sense of justice, and that it is popularly known. He might even have admired her before his corruption overcame the intial moral impulses that drove his secret rebellion. He feels she could create a false sense that the Empire is capable of being just and moral. He knows better than that, and thus she must be sacrificed. The ends justify the means and all that.
The motivation of the three suggested black cowl are mirroring European history :
Captain Baerfaust is an experienced soldier moved by politics, seeking more stable institutions and less vain power wars between nobles.
Von Kaufman is an experienced bourgeois moved by economics, seeking for more profits and less taxes from nobles who live just doing nothing.
Luminary Mauer is an experienced wizards moved by justice, seeking for more civils rights and less blind religious repression.
That's why I want the Black Cowl to be the association of them three… where one of them has gone to far seeking power from chaos and was taken by Tzeentsch. For now, I haven't figured which of them will do that and why. Could you give me some idea ?
Given that the "original plan" and "revised plan" also include striking at Sigmar's church, Mauer has suffered the most (if you go with standard 'witch hunters are templars of Sigmar). Any of them can be "writteninto the role" pretty easily.
My players may or may not find out (I'm going to try to make it easy/likely they do) that von Kaufman has a "private dinner" regularly with other "concerned free-thinking citizens" who cooperate for the good of Averheim during this vacuum of leadership - no Leitdorf/Alptraum or policial Sigmarites, only those more concerned for Averheim (or their own benefit) than for who is the Elector. Captain Baerfaust, Luminary Maeur, Unterlector Glotz, a professor from Steissen, a rich cattle magnate's widow etc.
As noted, poltically decentralist etc. In short, "the Averheim faction of the Conspiracy".
Their beliefs and interests as free thinkers don’t necessary overshadow their more mundane and personal goals and agendas.
valvorik said:
She wants "what decent nobles want" - the Elector Count issue resolved with a sound choice, the Empire Strong (she spent part of her youth in the royal court in Altdorf, that comes from novel in which she appears briefly, Beasts in Velvet) and has an eye to her own advancement in that course. She is independent (witness her refusal to marry off easily, in Old World terms being in her late 20's she is letting it go on a bit).
I didn't even remember that she is mentioned in the Beast in Velvet (sure that isn't Ludmila)? Now, what I had in mind - Where is "The Iron Countess" Marlene von Alptraum (daughter of Ludmila, the former Elector)? I mean she IS the matriarch of the family and probably will be the next von Alptraum candidate as Elector-seat. Offcourse she would not be the ideal candidate for the Conspiracy…
Yup, Chlotilde is there as being spurned by Leos and leaving city emotional wreck, just a passing line.
Tuchtenhagen's older brother's death (referenced in TEW 2) is a larger event of course, the duel - seems younger and older brothers are of same mold.
I found the references/tie-ins fun.
As to "where is the Iron Countess", if you mean in TEW 2, no-where really. She is described but plays no part. That is part of the plot "swerving" with the war and moving away from succession stuff. If you want to play out succession stuff more or come back after formal adventure, she might figure more.
I'm playing it that she and her Leitdorf rival have so maligned each other that they've made each other unacceptable (in part due to the extreme antipathy they now have, enough to provoke armed conflict), so the search for elector is broadening making "previously unconsidered candidates" more viable (hello Chlotilde and hello Black Cowl/Conspiracy ambitions).