This has probably been brought up before but after a clunky attempt at using the "search" "function" i gave up.

So do you add whirlwind before Wrathful descent or after. RAW seems to suggest after because it says "doubles any damage dealt". Wrathful descent seems just to add an additional damage dice to the attack..

Wrathful descent:

Inflict additional damage to horde after succesful attack(not damage)

Whirlwind:

"doubles any damage dealt"

x=regular damage etc y=wrathful descent w=whirlwind of death.

So is it:

(x+y)w=death

or

or X*W+y=less death

It seems that there could be alot of potential death according to the first equation, some in my group thought too much. But imo storm of iron and bolter drill seems even more overpowered with a stormbolter(insanely so)……

Personally i think it should be the first example equation that is what is meant.

/thanks

Here we have several situations to consider.

First is Wrathful Descent, it is triggered when you charge, and only works with the first succesful attack attack.

Whirlwind of Death doubles the damage to a horde's magnitude resulting from close-combat attacks.

The most likely answer is:

The damage from Wrathful Descent is doubled from Whirlwind of Death. An Assault Marine charges a horde, then succesfully hits the horde 2 times with and deals two points of damage to the horde's magnitude. This becomes 4 points. The Assault Marine rolls 1d10 getting a 6 for Wrathful Descent which then becomes 12.

If on the other hand, Wrathful Descent should be considered a "special ability" and not a close-combat attack, then the damage from Wrathful Descent is not doubled at all. Do not worry about this one though, use the answer in the last paragraph. I will see what the rules fellows have to say about this and get back to you if they answer.

Great Thanks. I hope you get an "in depth" answer.

Here is the answer from the official rules gurus.

"The damage from Wrathful Descent is dealt by the ability itself, not the melee attack that it is contingent on. It is therefore NOT multiplied by Whirlwind of Death."

So, Wrathful Descent is not a close combat attack and is not multiplied by Whirlwind of Death, or any other do X when making close combat attack special rules or talents.

I would like add a question here as OP also mentions storm of iron .

In and of itself it isnt that complicated as it doubles any magnitude damage from flame weapons or semi- and full auto burst, meaning that if for example a heavybolter scores three damaging hits on a horde causing a magnitude damage of 3 it would be doubled to 6. And from you answer above, if said heavy bolter was fired by a devastator using unrelenting devastation that 1d5 extra magnitude damage would not be doubled as it is caused by a special ability and not the attack itself.

The problem I have comes from the different bolter weapons out there. First all bolter weapons have the damage type explosive(x) which causes an aditional hit per attack, which if it damages the horde would cause an extra point of magnitude damage. As this is part of the attack it self I assume it would be doubled by storm of iron if the weapon fired semi or full auto burst, or is it also applied last like whirlwind of death was explained in previous posts?

My second problem comes from the tactical marine in my group using a storm bolter and metal storm rounds against hordes. The storm bolter itself has a burst of 4 and storm, giving it a potential 8 hits on a horde, using metal storm rounds each of those hits become blast(2) for a potential 16 hits (+1 one addtional from the explosive damage as metal storm rounds do not change damage type), with a potential for 17 magnitude damage. The big question here is ofcoure would storm of iron double those 17 magnitude damage to 34 (or if explosive damage is applied last, 16 doubled to 32 + 1 for a total of 33 magnitude damage)? effectivelt giving the character the chance to take down most hordes in one round.

Fortunately the tactical marine does not have storm of iron yet, but that is only a matter of time. I would appreciate any answers, and if I have missunderstood how metal storm rounds work with burst or full auto weapons.

First off, Unrelenting devestation is a special ability (much like wrathful descent). In the same vein as the magnitude damage from wrathful is not caused by the close combat attack, the magnitude damage from unrelenting devestation is not technically caused by attack. It is tacked on AFTER all other considerations from the attack.

An X weapon causes 1 additional hit per attack (BS roll). This additional hit is still considered from the weapon fired and is a normal part of the attack being made. Therefore it will be doubled by the Storm of Iron talent as normal.

Hits from Metal Storm rounds probably should be doubled from Storm of Iron as the shots are being fired with a semi or full auto burst (which, besides flamer, is the only requirement or limitation for Storm of Iron).

So a Heavy Bolter hitting 3 times follows the following course of action when dealing damage.

3 hits from BS
+1 hit from X type
4 total hits
Roll damage for each hit: all 4 deal 1+ damage for 4 magnitude damage
Double the attacks magnitude damage with Storm of Iron: Mag damage is now 8
Add 1d5 (rolled a 3) extra magnitude damage from Unrelenting Devestation

In this example the Devastator did a total of 11 magnitude damage.
Some notes:
Damage from hits is not automatic, although you may skip rolling if minimum damage is above the target's Armour+Toughness.
Any hit which failed to do 1+ damage will not damage magnitude and therefore will not be doubled with Storm of Iron.
Unrelenting Devestation damage is not doubled with Storm of Iron as it is not damage originating from the actual attack.

Storm of Iron + Metal Storm can be a little painful but here are a few things which may help you out as a GM with creating challenging encounters.

1: All special issue ammunition for heavy bolters cost +5 requisition for a standard 60 round magazine and +15 requisition for a Backpack ammo supply. So Metal Storm rounds for a heavy bolter costs 20 req for a 60 round mag, and 30 req for a backpack.

2: The Tactical Marine's "Free Magazine" of special issue ammunition is not a "Free backpack". It is just a normal magazine (60 rounds).

3: Hordes count as a single character (albiet made up of many individuals) and may use any combat actions or tactics a normal character can. This means they may use actions such as Defensive Stance (though they don't benefit from additional reaction) or Tactical Advance. They can also benefit from cover (really consider using it, it will make weak characters suprisingly tough to kill) and other special rules.

4: Use a leader (such as a Lieutenant, sergeant, etc.) to issue commands or special actions to their troops. For instance, if 5 infantry (not a horde) are nearby have the lieutenant use the command skill to order them to 'concentrate fire' on one target, counting as a horde for that round of shooting.

5: Deffinately check out the advanced horde rules in Mark of the Xenos.

P.S. My enter key will not work while I was typing this up in the board (did it in wordpad and copy/pasted). FFG! Set my forumites free!… of this junky forum programming.

Bleh, horrible programming…

Thanks for clearing things up a bit.

Also some great suggeations for using hordes there. It was so long a go i read Mark of the Xenos i had forgotten about the horde traits in there. And it would make sense that trained units with combat experience would know things like focus fire or tactical formation (reducing extra hits from blasts by 1 effectively negating metal storm rounds), while rampaging mobs might not, being mowed down by the deadly hail of metal coming their way.

Still it's kinda scary that the storm bolter with metal storm rounds has the potential to "one shot" a magnitude 30 horde, given that most things that form hordes will sustain at least one wound from minimum damage from that weapon, unless they are in cover of course.