Well folks, I'm essentially new to the forums and not terribly experienced game-wise. Still, the above is a pair of models made for the Inquisitor game system by an acquaintance of mine. The right figure is an Eldar ranger. The left...the left is a Demiurg, modelled by my chum, but 'visioned' by myself. (I have a much more poorly constructed version made by myself.)

Anyhow, in the next few months I hope to tweak out some information for including Demiurg as NPCs in the Calixis Subsector. I've been a big 'fan' of them for a while, if you can call me that. There isn't much data on them, but I've compiled a large amount of lore on them, and added some (alot) of my own, The link to the lore, and the 'rules' suggested for them in BFG/Inquisitor/Epic: Armageddon styles can be found at the bottom of this post. My point is that as I'm keen to start doing something for them in Dark Heresy, I'd be extremely keen to canvass ideas and opinions!

So, 'here they are': www.savefile.com/files/86793

He's Fantastic, I love the geometric design of his clothing, so un-imperial. I love the Eldar as well, I'm goign off to jealously brood now.

Thanks for the link! Great miniature painting, by the way.

The first question you have to ask yourself is "Are they the remnants of the Squats, or are they not?"

I imagine they are and that they're not just "mysterious trading partners" but in true Dwarf fashion are a fiercely independant race who barely acknowlege their human origins. They feel the Imperium let them down, betrayed their trust and left them high and dry in their hour of direst need. Maybe they'll trade with a Rogue Trader, but they distrust humans almost as much as they hate Orks and Tyrannids.

Just my take.

yeah, that's my take too on them. But about the figures... are the 'inquisitor' figures the same size scale as normal 40k figures?

Hi one and all. Thanks for your responses. For myself, I didn't do eithe rof the models seen here, but I did come up with the 'look', which a fellow conspirator went on to model and paint (very nicely, I might add). I wouldn't want to take the wrong credit there!

Maxim C. Gatling said:

I quite agree. My vision here is two-fold. First is the 'Yes' route, but I feel Warseer's cohort of people have made an impressive advance with the Varangyr, a 'reimagining' of the squats. Which is to say: very dwarfy. Ancestors, beards, axes...the whole kit and kaboodle.

The alternative, and the one seemingly pursued by GW, is that the Demiurg are indeed xenos . Not distant or confused (or irate) abhumans, but actual bonafide xenos.

Now, I quite sympathise with the line of reasoning, and appreciate it, that the Demiurg are culturally antaonistic to their human primogenitors. That is they even reject (or perhaps have modified) their own biology to become distinct. A fine possibility, but I still prefer the (IMO less conceited and more fresh/free/open) idea they're actually genuine xenos and were from the beginning (so to speak).

Personally, I have a huge number of ideas and half-notions as to what the Demiurg actually are, where they came form etc. It's my ambition to concoct a wee two or three page article depicting the Demiurg (i.e. looking like the one at the start of the thread) plus a couple of mechanical henchmen. I've a half-mind to do a more indepth article depicting a PC adaption 'Homeworld' which permits the character to be a sortof sleeper-agent-infiltrator in an almost Battlestar Galactica skinjobs style (though, 40k-realistically, it'd be closer to Edward Scissorhands than Caprica Six). I'd go into it in more detail, of course...

If I were to characterise the Demiurg, however, how'd I go about doing it? My initial reaction is a distinctly low WS, BS, S and Ag: these folks can build things to do that, they don't need to do it themselves. Keeping a degree of 'dwarfyness' about 'em, they'd have a better Toughness than their WS, BS, S and Ag scores. A degree of low Fellowship, but with heightened perception and willpower, with an impressive intellect is 'about accurate', plus the ability to concoct devices and artificial beings capable of doing things mean that the individual Demiurg needn't have that many explicit skills, but that as a member of a wider infrastructure (largely something they'd concocted themself or as part of a Brotherhood) they'd be quite able to bring an impressive amount 'to the table'.

Which is to say: difficult to catch them out as someone 'in need' of anything other than financial, specifically industrial or remarkably militant. More often than not it'd be a Demiurg behind the business rather than participating. As both a 'medium to big bad' and an incidental (but powerful) NPC, I imagine they'd be quite useable for the imaginative roleplaying group/

(To use an analogy: They're a good source of both technology and funds, yet will likely be driving a hard and/or obscure bargain. If I were to make an analogy to other RPG archetypes, it'd be a stylish combination of both dwarf traders and gnome inventors everywhere, but removing the gimmicky short person tack and bundling on a lot more interesting (or ought I say 'alien' or even realistic) ideas rather than those transplanted from many fantasy settings (or even 40k's squats).

yeah, that's my take too on them. But about the figures... are the 'inquisitor' figures the same size scale as normal 40k figures?

They are not. 40k figures are ~28mm whilst Inquisitor 's are of the ~54mm order. Bigger, but not too much: you can still play a game of Inquisitor using 40k's scenery, for instance!

Omnicrazzy said:

Alas, Nay.

They're 54mm, beautiful, fun to paint and convert....

And they're hard to find, limited variety and hella expensive....

Unfortunately, actual Squat figures on Ebay are pretty pricey too. I'm thinking of taking some Dwarves from the WHFB range and heavily kit-bashing them.

The big problem with Squats was that GW couldn't figure out a way to make them different and unique enough to justify their existance as a separate, playable army. Personally, I would rather they remained as an auxilliary race. Ratlings and Ogryns never had their own army lists...

I like the conversion, btw. The apron is a nice touch and smacks of "Masonic Conspiracy". My only complaint would be that it's too...Tau.

Tau are a race also reliant on technology. This makes them weak in Melee, but good with ranged combat. They also have fairly asthetically pleasing equipment.

I envision Demiurge to be steeped in Dark Age Technology. They'd have pre-Heresy stuff that the Mechanicus would give their left servo-nut for, but the Demiurge, being Squats, (therefore Dwarves), are a very practical race who aren't tethered by religious Omnissiah nonsense. They're also a proud warrior race, which is one trait Dwarves universally have that personally I'm not willing to compromise on.

That being said, stats-wise I see them sort of the opposite of Tau. Good at melee, not so hot ranged. Heavy reliance on A.I. and Robots (which were banned by the Emperor...so Dark Age Technology) and common use of things like anti-grav equipment, genetic modification, organ cloning etc. Equipment-wise, they're going to be practical over pretty. They'll have some really Master-Crafted stuff which will overcome a lot of the drawbacks of Imperial equipment. Plasma guns won't overheat for instance, yet do the same devastating damage as Imperial versions. Basically, their stuff will be more reliable as a whole. Auspexes would have a larger range and less room for operator error. That sort of stuff.

Anyway, that's my vision for them. I do think of them as Squats and of Human origin, but time, distance, separation and the willingness to continue genetic experiments make them Xenos for all intents and purposes.

One 'issue' I have with the Squats/Demiurg debate, in terms of Dark Heresy, is that I see the Squats are a perfectly playable 'homeworld' origin. With a few tweaks one can happily play almost directly from the older material and do it pleasantly. I'd be surprised if it's not already a popular choice, merely one that I haven't seen!

===

Anyways

I've been brainstorming, rolling and plotting. Using the GM's Handbooky thing, I created this 'typical' Demiurg for insertion into a campaign as a 'big bad'. I'll seek to create some robotic, artificial, mechanic and subversive henchmen/bots for this one, and hopefully come up with a decent handful of 'insertion plot hooks' for getting it into the games.

The Conductor

WS: 13
BS: 31
S: 21
T: 27
Ag: 22
Int: 61
Per: 33
WP: 43
Fel: 20

Movement: 2/4/6/12
Wounds: 28

Skills: Speak Language (Most widely known in the Calixis Sector, plus functional but basic Eldar, Q'orl pheromonal + topically obscure things) +20, Common Lore (Imperial Creed, Machine Cult, Arbites, Imperium, Tech, War) +10, Forbidden Lore (Xenos, Archaeotech) +20, Scholastic Lore (Numerology, Chemystry, Astromancy) +20, Tech Use +20, Evaluate +20, Trade (Technomat, Prospector) +20, Logic +20, Awareness, Barter, Evaluate, Decieve.

Traits: Regenerate, Sustained Life, Flexible, Fear 1.

Talents: Ambidextrous, Concealed Cavity, Exotic Weapons Training, Foresight

Armour: Augmetic Suit [4 All]

Weapons: Ionic Wand (Pistol, 15m, S/5/10, 1d10+1 E, 2, 10, -, Accurate, 0.3kg, 5000, very rare)

Equipment: Augmetic suit (incorporates: unnatural senses [10m], chrono, auxpex, infragoggles, photocontacts, combitool, lascutter), Ionic Wand, 2D10 spare parts (typically highly valuable and ubiquotous) [roll each meeting]. The Conductor also has several dextuous appendages protruding from the fore-arm region which count as a utility mechadendrite with the exception that the censers generate a tuneable buzz, making generally the same, but a sound-based item rather than a smell-based.

Threat Rating: Xenos Majoris, though anyone with any decent prior knowledge will treat as Obscuro Minoris.

===

Discussion & Depiction

Well, as you can see, the Conductor is setup as a pretty **** intelligent beasty. A high WP and decent level of perception combined with its array of skills make for it to be a perplexing entity. It is tough insofar as it is fairly well armoured, possesses bizarre regenerative capacity (can recover from seemingly very serious injuries) and possesses many wounds. [unlike dwarfs/squats, where we'd expect a much higher toughness and no specific regenerative ability.] Highly enigmatic and decidedly unnerving entity. It doesn't quite go so far as to possess a disturbing voice. When it speaks a faintly musical, yet highly alien, noise underpins the dialogue, rising and falling throughout a sentence or statement to fade soon after the end.

The Conductor stands around five foot tall, with an array of what are presumed to be sensor apparatus on the head-analogue. The feet, legs and hands of the Conductor are remarkably inhuman. Each hand consists of six long digits mobile on multiple axes with four joints apiece. In addition, the 'utility mechadendrites', dubbed 'techneurites', of the fore-arms appear as three slender tentacular protuberances of length ~<0.5m, They display impressive dexterity and seem to function broadly as electro-grafts and electoos. The Conductors hands appear capable of grasping multiple objects at one instance, appearing to possess two palms each (with fully prehensile 'double-jointed' digits). The legs are short and stumpy, they display no obvious knee-joints but instead appear to be formed of multi-directional successive (and shallow) ball joints providing some flexibility which, together, permit locomotion. Their feet/pseudopods also appear to display a trio each of these so-called techneurites. Each foot features a loosely triangular pad with two toe-like protrusions at each vertex permitting measured stability and robustness in erection.

When the Conductor walks it is slow, and of purpose, being unlikely to make any hasty or rapid locomotive moves. The flexibility of its legs are somewhat unsettling, as is the slightly jerkiness of the motion, despite the fluidity and dexterity of the limbs themselves.

Looking at the Conductor's head-analogue one is confronted with a faceless visage. It is typically unreadable, with small lights and faint patterns appearing inconstantly and intermittantly. Many observers may easily experience paradolia in attempts to 'read' the Conductor's stance visually or audibly.

The Conductor's chest-plate houses a small cavity in which is holstered wand-like device, used for self-defence, though it seems multi-purpose, acting well as a light-based pointer or elementary remote control device.

The augmetic suit the Conductor wears is sufficient to completely obscure any signs of biology. Though the pseudopods and techneurites seem somewhat organic, it is doubtful whether they are representative of any creature within. It mounts various geometric patterns, including small plates featuring fractal displays, complex weaves, light emitters etc. It is adorned with a handful of small drapes and ties, also featuring obscure images and generally unknown scenes of presumably esoteric significance. The colours are generally browns, beiges and tans. The glint of brass, polished copper and other metals and alloys are visible, though in generally small quantites. Of the drapes and images, some smaller ones feature many colours, prominently outlining contrast and seeming to be little more than fascinators. Of the larger pieces, fainter greens are visible, with distinct outlines and highlights picked out in vibrant turqoise.

Players are able to decipher no particular or obvious hints with regard to gender or strength/frailty.

===

What's it good for?

The image I have is that this Conductor is typically infiltrating human society to a degree. Functionally this may take the form of a cult with distinct economic overtones when it comes to the long game. Scientology could easily be the product of a few foolishly influenced people subject to the implantation of some Demiurg devices.

Demiurg, primarily, are technologists. They engage in mining, they have an almost innate skill and affinity for technology, logic and reason. Whilst they are efficient, their motivation can seem slow and undriven. Like the dwarfs and squats before, a Demiurg is implacable and stubborn with regards to a particular choice made. The Demiurg, unlike the squats and dwarfs, are distanced from their emotions. Alien drives fuel their unknowable minds, yet anger, love, compassion, hatred is generally undetectable. Fascination, curiosity and rejection of certain ideas or claims is common, though it is perhaps unlikely one would ever described a Demiurg as 'animated' or 'excited'. Like a Vorlon, they might be roused to action. It is this sort of distant, devastating martial prowess and drive which leads to the depiction of 'hatred' and 'fury' which is reserved for Orks.

This doesn't strike me as a grudge, but as a distinct distance from a concept of compassion or forgiveness. Logical approaches can lead to such conclusions (making a Demiurg appear almost benevolent when they have input a significant investment), but it is difficult to describe them as particularly emotional.

What purpose might the Conductor serve? Illicit goods. Trade. Access to certain materials. The idea of a Demiurg fullfilling the 'role' of a crime-lord is certainly appealing. Bypassing Imperial Law, Ecclessiastical sensibilities, flouting Adeptus Terra tithes and even rejecting the technical supremacy of the Cult Mechanicus are highly sufficient reasons to paint a Demiurg instigated or Demiurg-aided crime-empire (or cult) to be particularly heretical too...but in a distinctly different way from the traditional cults such as the Genestealers of daemonic cults.

Typically the Conductor's associated 'businesses' are interested in nothing so mundane as revolution, revolt or secession but in profit and industry. Resource accumulation and even protecting the security of nearby Demiurg assets in the extended stellar region. If anything, the Conductor is likely to be a particular manipulator, interested in ensuring that any acolytes cause as little disruption to normal routine as possible.

It is possible, however, to persuade or convince the Conductor otherwise, presumably, by merely presenting a factual or logical basis for events, cultivating mercantile interest in an endeavour or stressing the particular benefits of a course of action. Making logically silly arguments is a likely way for the Conductor to deem a point fruitless.

The 'personality' of the Conductor extends somewhat to its lieutenants and subordinates (particularly its personally crafted assistant automata), but it is also true that there exists the possibility for dissension. Errors can be made, programs can be faulty and surprising phenomena might well emerge from a complex system. Though the Conductor enjoys control and a longer view of time, it is possible that its foresight is not absolute.

The Demiurg themselves are typically passive-aggressive (in that they might be uncooperative or unhelpful) and largely only aggressive when directly threatened. It would be easy to make a powerful enemy here.

===

The Strength of the Conductor

It lies in its organisation. It might be only one Demiurg, but it likely wields a far larger organisation as easily as one of your organised acolytes might direct a squad or self-discipline themselves. Hundreds ir not thousands of cultists, workers, employees and contacts may be spread across a world working (perhaps unknowingly) for the Demiurg. The insertion of veiled automata in the guise of humans is not unlikely. Abominable intelligence constructs orchestrating the organisation on behalf or, or directly in liason with or even merely in associated with the Conductor is highly likely. Industrial capacity, a wealth of equipment, a strong economic basis and efficiently robust security methods are likely hallmarks of any organisation intimately connected to the Demiurg.

===

Some final words

I also wrote a few bits depicting a 'Homeworld Origin' for which a character may be played as a Demiurg construct (veiled as a human [think like a human-form cylon in BSG]). Whether they know their origins, how capable they are or if they even have a particular purpose is utterly unknown/undecided. The character might have ulterior motives, it might play them as distinctly unaware or even merely perturbed. They're robotic though, not squishy. Suffering remarkable injury or subjecting oneself to intense medical, scientific or technical scrutiny is a sure way to reveal such a character. I'll post up more soon, hopefully folks might warm to the idea. Also I'll do a small Dramatis Personae for the Conductor's own 'henchmen' and direct associates...