I play a Devastator. I've been looking at the Signature Wargear (Hero) talent rules, and I have some questions about determining total requisition for items that are already treated as standard issue.

I prefer the Heavy Bolter. When I reach Rank 7, I intend to have mine upgraded to Master-Crafted quality, with additional upgrades. Devastators get the Heavy Bolter as standard issue. The Ranged Weapon Tables state that its Req cost is 20 at Common quality. If I were to upgrade it to Master quality, the Req cost would be 40.

If I already have the Heavy Bolter as standard issue, do I get to add in just the cost of the craftsmanship upgrade, or the whole 40 for point purposes in Signature Wargear?

It depends on your GM. If he allows you to trade in requisition points from starting equipment for new weapons and wargear during regular requisition than yes, if not, you know the answer. Otherwise the whole requisition system would be out of balance.

But why go for Signature Wargear (Hero) which grants you up to 70 requisition points, when it would be better to choose the Signature Wargear/Signature Wargear (Master) Combination, which will give you only 40 points, but grants you +10 to all Attack tests? Or are you planning to get some additional upgrades such as a Deathwatch Suspensor (65 points total)?

Kain McDogal said:

Something along the lines of the latter, yes. If the base Req is not counted because of the HB's status as standard issue, I would Master-Craft it (20), then add a Suspensor (25), and a Motion-Predictor (20). (My character has to use a Heavy Bolter, his Heavy Bolter, for roleplaying reasons.)

I already have my first Signature Wargear, a standard issue Mk7 helmet (0) with integrated Auto-Sense Goggles (10), Geographic Mapping function (taken from a Cartograph) (5), and a Stummer (5). (I was able to treat them all as one piece of wargear by getting rid of the ability to share navigation information with my Killteam beyond verbal communication or drawing a map in the dirt, and that the Stummer is integrated to work with the helmet, so it actually cannot be used without the helmet on. It also helps that I slew a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch inside Watch Fortress Erioch while the GM was considering the gear build).

My next Signature Wargear (which I intend to upgrade to Master) will be a Chameleoline Cloak (which I would then Master-Craft). I'm a stealth-build Devastator (Gotta love the Honour Thy Wargear advances).

According to the rules: you may not upgrade existing equipment with signature wargear. When using SW you gain a brand new item with all the bells and whistles you want for it.

On the roleplaying front, it shouldn't be as simple as paying 500 xp and viola your weapon just got better. Spending the xp and getting that bolter you saw in the fortress armoury earlier though.

On the other side, you are playing an RPG. If its a serious issue for you, see if you GM will let your tech marine modify (tech heresy) your heavy bolter to the specs you want. It should cost you XP (as an elite advance, and probably equal to 500 xp per 20-30 req value of upgrades) and the techmarine will have to take tech use tests (with success or failures having an affect on the finished product). When finished you have an (hopefully, depending on rolls) upgraded bolter.

Thank you Herichimo. I'll keep that in mind, and bring your proposed use of the elite advances with my GM.

I have a similar question/problem.

How much REQ does a Crozius Arcanum cost? Before someone bites my head of, I know it is the special weapons of space marine chaplains. The question arouse becouse my chaplain would like to "trade" his standard crozius for a master crafted one. Of course it is not like: "hey you! give me that thing" kind of exchange. I was thinking Signature wargear (Master) would be sufficent from the xp side and a hell lot of roleplaying and heroic deed from the other so the High Chaplin would entrust such a weapon to my care (I would even create a background for it).

So what do you think? 20 rep points would be sufficent? Meaning 40 would allow me to purchase a master crafted one.

Thx in advance!

There is no official requisition cost for a crozius arcanum. It is simply presented to the chaplain when he attains that position.

I've lamented the inability (though I've never had the desire) to gain a master crafted version in the past. After thinking it over for a while, I'm not sure it would be 'appropriate' for a chaplain to 'trade in' the crozius either his chapter's or the deathwatch's reclusium presented as his office. It is probably already a unique item, designed and fashioned for him alone. Its almost already, and more true to the talent's namesak, a piece of signiture wargear for the chaplain.

I have just returned home after a session in which my GM allowed me to requisitin a mastercrafted crozius. This is of course not supported by any rules as Herichimo already stated but we felt that as any right minded Chaplain would never use any other closecombat weapon to cleanse xenos filth with this would allow him at least one weapon option for missions with high requisition allowance.

Fluff wise it could be considered that on such an important mission he was given the honour of carriyng a particular ancient and valued Crozium in place own his own. Alternativly he might have prepared for this mission by spending many hours or reciting the Litanies of Hate imbuing his own Crozius with additional potency for that mission.

Pointswise our GM ruled that a normal Crozius would have a cost of 25 requisition (an avarage of the power weapons in the book wich costs between 20 and 30 requisition points) and thus I had to pay 50 points for this.

As stated above this is not supported by the rules but might be a acceptable house rule for other groups containing Chaplains (or Wolfpriests).

herichimo said:

I agree with you, but like Peem said: a chaplain will never use any other melee weapon. I also think it is a bit out of character for them to use a crozius with another weapon (two weapon fighting). But this means that they would lose all the benefits a character can gain by using a master crafted weapon. (+10WS, +2 damage). With dice rolls more than a few times +10WS can mean the differance between succes or failure.

I think all DW chaplains are trained by the DW so all their gear belongs to the DW. So it's not like the chaplain decides to "trade in" his crozius for a new master crafted ones. I would say it's the other way around: the high chaplain finds him worthy of carring such a weapon. It would be a lot easier if you could "apply" the effects of the signature wargear (master) talent to your standard issue gear. Than you would ad +10WS with your crozius (loseing only the +2 damage), but this can only be added to wargear gained through signature wargear. But if we treat it as you said, a signature wargear, well than the above process can be applied.

It seems, I will have a long converastion with my GM

As far as I'm concern as GM a crozius is not an average power weapon so his cost would not be between 20-30 but a bit moremaybe 40 then it will be 80 for the craftmanship and more even than req it is reknown that would count.

Witch High Chaplain would give a such potent and rare item to someone not even worthy of it?

So I would say than a hero rank should be needed.

But as always it is just my point.

Thebigjul said:

You are absolutly right about the "being worthy" part, but I would argue with the req cost. The crozius is not that good. It's just slightly better than a power sword (+1 damage, +1 pen) which is 20 req points, but clearly stays behind a pair lighting claws (45 req point). To be completly honest: I have discarded the idea of getting a master crafted crozius through signature wargear (getting it as a one mission item was never on my mind). I like writhing short storries (the prelude of my charater takes up 12 A4 size pages ) and a story for such a weapon was circuling in my head for days. I wanted to know what you guys would thing about obtaining such a weapon, and frankly your point of views changed everything. I'm still going to make up that weapon, but it will be a relic. If its going to be included in our games (defenatly not for PCs) or not, well its up to our GM to decide

Last night I had a long chat with our GM, and he agreed with me (and with hericimo) so now signature wargear (master) can be applied to any wargear the character gained later as standard issue (the power weapon of the Keeper or the DW champion for example).

Thanks for your time and answers!

May the EMPEROR and the PRIMARCS watch over you!

Brother Chaplain Magister said:

Well, I can't stop you from doing this. But I can say it is against the rules, though I'm sure you already knew this. Master can only be used on wargear purchased with the normal. Or, you return (give up) the original signature wargear and purchase a new item up to 40 req with master, which also counts as using the original signature wargear talent as well.

In my mind the req cost for the Crozius is not linked to the power of the weapon but to the rare and few item made.

The price reflect the cost of the symbol represent by a crozius. But yes maybe 40 is too much maybe 35 or 30 but not less.

Yes the Crozius is not the most potent weapon but any SM with a Crozius will be look with awe by almost all human (even more than a SM who's by the way look with awe and fear) but most of all it will be treat with homour and respect by all SM as the might of will of the Astartes and the power of the truth of the Emperor truth.

It will be a real asset in every contact made by the KT with the Ecclessiarchy, and any Imperial cult found in ennemy territory.

By the way I like your idea to make a relic Crozius who could be given to a NPC or even PC for one story in witch the object will have a real or symbolic role to play.

Like a KT confrontation with Word bearer who maybe killed the last owner of the Crozius and the use of this item will be a true retribution for the past Hero an d a just reward for the weapon to slain those who insult the Imperial truth.

herichimo said:

You are absolutly right, it is my mistake, that I wasn't clear enough. I was allowed to use the signature wargear (master) talent on my crozius to gain the benefits listed on Table 4-2 (page126) - namely the +10WS as I get bonded with the weapon - and NOT to gain a master crafted one. Again you are right, that it is against the rules, but I'm sure that these rules were not made wit the alternate specialities on mind. A chaplain pais a lot of XP to gain acces to the carrier and to get the wargear (I'm sure this was taken into account) as do Epistolaries and Champions. And I think it would be very uncharasteristic for these alternate carriers not to be able to bond with their gear like an assault marine could with his chosen power sword. Thus allowing the use of the above mentioned talen on these items - strictly the table persented on page126 and not tradeing in for a better one - allows the "upgrade" of these items while staying true to the concept (as someone pointed out: a chaplain would never use another melee weapon than his crozius, so sooner or later he will get used to it, gets better with it. And this can be represented by allowing the use of the talent on such items.

@Thebigjul: you are right. And we came to an agreement that there is no neeed for req value for a crozius. I was just arguing for the sake of arguing. Sorry

It is not necessarily true that a Chaplain will use no melee weapon but his Crozius. Many dual-wield with another melee weapon: chainsword, power-weapon, power-fist, etc.