Not sure what they were thinking with the Advanced Aircraft Rules. At least, I’m not sure what they were thinking about this *specific* rule:

“While airborne, aircraft units cannot be targeted by standard ATTACK actions from ground units or aircraft units with the Hover skill. Aircraft units can only be targeted by SUSTAINED ATTACK actions. Additionally, when making a SUSTAINED ATTACK against aircraft units, results are not rerolled.”

So, doesn’t this effectively mean that you can’t use Reactive Fire against aircraft? If so, that seems really, really, REALLY stupid since most of the units with Advanced or Superior Reactive Fire are anti-aircraft units like the Heinrich, Sturmkonig, and Wildfire.

As if aircraft needed to be MORE powerful than they already are…

Kriegschatten said:

Yeah, I didn't like those too much upon the first read. I really don't wanna see an "Unearthed Arcana"-type deal happening with DT/DW (optional rules to add realism/verisimilitude/whatever). A game like this just gaining some traction, and desperately in need of a solid rules framework to work with tournament/organized play/scene-wise doesn't need to throw something like this in, not now. They shoulda just sent it to Dust Chronicles.

I like them, they are somewhat reminiscent of the Warfare rules. Besides the sticky point of reactive fire, they are smarter rules that allow aircraft to be dealt with better, something an allied player can appreciate.

I'm note sure there's an issue with Reactive Fire, I'm looking at the RCS rules and I don't see anything in the Reactive Fire section that even resembles Sustained Attack. It says if you succeed your Reactive Fire roll you preform "a single attack action," not a Sustained Attack.

Am I missing something.

Also, Air Alert doesn't work as you don't make re-rolls when making a Sustained Attack and Air Alert allows you to re-roll re-rolls.

Miah999 said:

The issue to me is that, according to the new rules, you can *only* attack an aircraft with a Sustained Attack.

Since Reactive Fire is *not* a Sustained Attack, you *can't* use it against aircraft.

That seems very counterintuitive since most of the units with Advanced or Superior Reactive are explicitly supposed to be anti-air units.

Major Mishap said:

Well, the last page of the Advanced Aircraft Rules does change the way that Air Alert works:

"When playing with advanced flying rules, do not use the Air Alert skill as described in expansion rulebooks. Instead, use the following skill description: Units with the Air Alert skill may perform a SUSTAINED ATTACK as normal when spending two actions to fire at an airborne aircraft unit.”"

Ok now I see what you meant.

Anybody fancy making a flow diagram for using these optional rules, its way to confusing with all the different criteria need on who can fire at what, with what skills and what dice to roll.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of these either. The joy of DT/DW is the simplicity in the rules, this just adds a layer of complexity not needed in my opinion. Only firing at aircraft with a sustained attack is bad news in my opinion. Not only does it negate all forms of reactive fire, it means players will be forced to take specific models in their armies just in case they go up against aircraft. For an army like SSU, that means our only true means of dealing with aircraft is the Mao Zedong, an 83 point magnet.

I like the idea of airborne and grounded aircraft, but that's about it. No need to add all this complexity of who can use a sustained attack against what. Aircraft already negate Unlimited weapons and most of the units in the game can't even touch them, I don't see why you'd need to add this while other complicated layer with the sustained attacks.

Aircraft lifting off and landing seems like a simple enough mechanic that offers a little more strategic options. You can land your helicopter behind a building to avoid getting shot down, then once your other troops have taken out the AA guns, you can lift off again and wreak havoc with impunity. The necessity of being grounded to unload carried units does diminuish the effectivity of carrier aircraft, so I don't know how great a thing that is. One idea I had is you don't HAVE to land your aircraft to unload units, but if a units disembarks from an airborne aircraft it loses on of its actions. So you can land and have your troops exit and attack / exit and move, or you can remain airborne, but because the troops are parachuting down, all they do in their activation is leave the carrier.

Major Mishap said:

I can. I use visio a lot and can ,ake a nice flow chart. I just need someone to explain the rules to me first as I have not fully absorbed them. Send me a private email and we can work on it if you wish.

Yeah, need it explaining to me first, that's why I want a flow diagram Until the Reactive Fire gets fixed first, can't see them being useful yet. I have mailed FFG but they never reply about rule mistakes.

Major Mishap said:

weird, everyone I've seen, including me, gets answers from Zach pretty quickly on rules questions. Do you email direct or use the rules form on this site?

blkdymnd said:

I use the site. Any actual rules questions get answered quick, but if you send a problem, it gets ignored. I did once get a reply on 'why' a rule was in place and just got told thats just how its designed, never got a reply for that type of thing since.

Aircraft are already a pain for my army, i dont see why anyone would agree on those. Only idea i have is when both players agree on a set amount if flayers per side and then use the rules.

There's another problem. There are now weapons, like the .50mg, that can damage an airbourne flyer but not one that's grounded.

Major Mishap said:

Good point!

And that list is not short, either. In fact, it's probably almost all of the light & medium anti-air units like the Heinrich, Wildfire, Rattler, Heavy Recon Grenadiers, Nastasia, etc.

I got a reply back from Zach concerning the Reactive Fire:

According to the Advanced Aircraft rules, ground units cannot target airborne aircraft units with standard ATTACK actions. Ground units may only target airborne aircraft units with a SUSTAINED ATTACK action on their activation. Reactive Fire is a special action, and may still be attempted as normal in response to an airborne aircraft unit's activation. However, the range restriction of 6 spaces still applies to Reactive Fire.