I've read a number of books about Space Marines. So, they're supposed to be not just warriors, and not just superhumans, but the equivalent of knights in the 40K universe. In the fiction some of of the chapters seem to be like the rest of the 40K Imperium, even a bit worse - we're incredible, superior to anyone .who needs our assistant. The only people who matter, really, are other Space Marines. Doing horrific things to normal people, not even able to speak civilly to anyone under them. Others seem more like the idealized Arthurian knights - they're abilities just give them greater responsibility - they're knightly when the speak to even civilians, and while they will do things that hurt normal people, their goal is to protect them and avoid that where possible.

The general problem for all space marines seems to be Hubris/Pride - any of these chapters can end up making bad decisions because of it.

So, is this correct? Do behaviroal standards just differ by chapter, or are some chapter just unable to comply with standards, or are the nobler chapters heretical?

I'm curious - is there a World-of-Darkness like mechanic for their Hubris? That is, to do cool stuff, they have to become more prideful, but as they do so they're gradually becoming more monsterous, where they're randomly capturing citizens and turning them into servitors.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

I'll start by saying this, "Whose standards are you talking about?" Space Marines are not Human, they are more and at the same time less than human, they are effectively living breathing demi-gods. Would you judge God on Human standards? Of course not, God (if your religion is Atheism, just bear with it, no ones trying to convert you, its just an example) is beyond human standards, laws, and relatability.

Another way to think of it is, do you feel overly responsible for protecting squirrels? Squirrels have a part in our world and ecosystem but to use humans they aren't terribly important. Most of us hold an indifferent attitude to them. We are fine letting them do their squirrel things as long as they don't get in our way. They start getting in our business (attics for instance) then we go mideval on them, hunting them until they are gone. If we happen to run over one on the highway, well, "it was just a squirrel." This is similar to how space marines see humans, to them a human is like a squirrel is to us. Humans are part of their universe, but they don't really have much importance in their lives. If we slight or attack them they'll come down hard and if one or two happen to get in the way of what they are doing and get squashed, they don't worry too much.

Now there are some space marines who are more compassionate and those more antagonistic towards humans. Just like humans, there are those of us with a crazy rediculous over the top concern for squirrels (the nuts at PETA for instance) even those who value them over human lives. There are also some humans who, being many times quite psychotic, are overly malicious to squirrels. But these are extremes to the norm in both cases.

Space Marines just don't remember what its like to be a human. That stuff has been hammered out of their minds by training, hypno-indoctrination, and their abilities with their new demi-go bodies. A human cannot move as fast, lift as much, react as quick, think as fast, heal as well, or fight as strongly as a space marine. They are superior to us in every way. To space marines humans are slow, weak, and prone to fear things they can no longer even relate to. Its not pride or hubris, they just think differently than humans do, they seem alien, because they are.

Space Marines understand their duty is to protect mankind, not to protect every single man. Saving or protecting every normal human on a battlefield isn't their mission or even their goals, winning the battle and protecting the human species is, and they will sacrifice any number of humans they have to if it achieves that goal.

Now if writers enjoy sticking to the Tropes hollywood has applied to people (strong people are dumb, big guys are slow, and strong warrior guys are blinded by pride) then they are poor writers. Space Marines break all the tropes: they are strong, genius, fast, big, and while they may have some pride in what they can do - it is overshadowed and squashed by their duty and intelligence.

Fast answer to the question.

Humans worth nothing for chapters like Blood Tearers, Carcharodon, Iron hands, Mortificator and those kind of chapter

Humans are what they are for most of the chapter a mass of people they have to defend against the rest of the galaxy and somtime themself.

Humans are important for chapters like the Salamenders, Ultramarines and others but right now can't tell more.

I would put it like this: Space Marines are charged with the preservation of humanity . Not individual humans, which are by and large insignifigant.

Hmm… The answers fit because they're grim and nasty. Thank you for your time and assistance

herichimo said:

The above is really pushing things to the absurd. Space Marines:human does not equate to human:squirrel. If anything, Space Marines view regular humans as children. Baseline humans are less capable but they are also ultimately the future of humanity - and of the Space Marines themselves.

In answer to you're question regarding the WoD mechanic for a SM hubris:

In most cases this is death with through a mixture of the insanity (primarchs curse) and corruption mechanics. The Primarchs Curse often gives an indication of which chapters are more 'caring' about humanity while the disorders gained through an increase of corruption/insanity reflect a more personal degradation. Remember corruption in particular is not just for coming into contact with warp tainted creatures (it's not the mutation points system from WHFRP second ed) so it can be gained for failing of the soul. I've given corruption points out for torture and using guardsmen as disposable troops before, and for insisting civilians be pressed into service under martial law. Not many, but just enough to represent the character is slowly becoming more detached from the ideals of a race he was created to protect, but can't ever really be a part of.

It isn't just Space Marines who feel this way either. Spire nobles don't give a rat's arse about anyone under them and no law abiding citizen thinks underhivers particularly deserve to breathe their air. The grim dark is that human lives are worth very little in 40k. There are precisely 2 kinds of people who matter to you at all: people who you owe fealty to and people who owe fealty to you. Space Marines don't save people's lives because life has any inherent value to them, they save lives because those lives belong to the Emperor as sheep belong to the shepard. Everything is judged in context of "what are you worth to the Master of Mankind". For the vast majority of individual humans, the answer is "very little".

nice posts, gents! I imagine quite a few roleplayers will be helped out by Blackethorne's categories. And remember: no matter how indifferent and nasty you are to humans, Corruption awaits…..

May Isuggest a series of books that really does a great job describing how Space Marines feel about the humans they protect? I would suggest Checking out the Ultramarine Omnibus, and the series that follows it.

It goes into some really good detail about what goes on inside at least one Space Marines Captains head. It also describes from his view point how other Chapters handle things differently from his chapter The Ultramarines.

Above someone listed Protector reference. The Ultramarines, at least from the Captains view point are Protectors of Humanity. They go through Great lengths to ensure that as few Humans as possible die for they are all Children of the Emporer. They also Respect Humans for their Mortality At least the brave ones that will throw themselves do their death in such great numbers. They (Ultramarines) Also do not agree with the methods of other Chapters like say the Blood Angels in many cases. Who are more likely to Sacrifice Humans in mass numbers without much Hesitation to get the job done.

So yes each and every Chapter has their own believe system. Much like Earth today. To think they all have THOUSANDS of years of culture that has helped to shape the views of each Chapter.

There is a scene in the Eisenhorn trilogy where a White Consul Space Marine places himself in harm's way to protect civillians. The circumstances are unusual in that these Space Marines were present at an official function, with lots of civillians around, that suddenly turned violent. It seems to me that Space Marines usually interact with other military personell, or higher-ranking civillian figures. The latter tend to either be very safely guarded, or very dead. Sure, Space Marines may encounter civillians on the field of battle, but either there is no appreciable danger and the Space Marines need to get busy and find some other trouble, or the situation is already dangerous and coddling the civvies is lower on the priority list than is killing rampaging Tyranids.

HappyDaze said:

Except, not really.

Space Marines are not human, they're more than human. They've become something much more powerful than a base human. The analagy is sound. If you need something which doesn't require much personal logic to understand then consider the difference between angels and humans (real biblical angels, the kind which can defeat an army of 10,000 strong single handedly, where any time they present themselves everyone hits the dirt and begs to be spared, not the ones which 'touch' everyone).

Don't fall into the trap where you either cannot or refuse to actually accept some things are not similar to you. That is called Ethnocentrism, its a rather common thing in the western world (especially, to my not so unexpected disappointment, the United States). Some cultures are different enough where they don't relate to yours and some beings are different enough where they don't relate to you.

Read about the Salamanders, who appear to go even beyond the Ultramarines to go above and beyond to help humans, not just mankind. I agree, Blackthorne has a pretty broad explanation that fits well.

-Cynr

we really need to be clear on what space marines really are: they're genetically modified freaks. Aberrations of science. They are not gods, they are not demi-gods, they are not angels (in the judeao-islamic-christian-zoroastrian tradition). They are mutilated humans who've been conditioned to kill and obey without compunction. They are guard dogs. Now, that's not to say they're simple or noncomplex - far from it. But let's take them off their pedestal and see them for what they really are. They are human beings. Genetically and surgically altered human beings. Human beings who can no longer reproduce sexually, but human nonetheless. As humans, we can expect to find in them the entire range of human expression - some will be murderous goons, some will be pious saints; more or less dictated by their primarch's genetic inheritance and their own personal genetics, moulded by the culture of their chapter. To say they cannot be understood by us mere mortals is disingenuous.

So, 'do normal people matter?' Depends on the chapter, seems to me - Blackethorne's categories seem to delineate things quite nicely…any chapter that's more than scornful of individual humans is gonna be on the wrong side of Heresy before too long…..

Astartes are raised by a mostly different moral system than we have. They are taught to be their Primarchs Sons, Sons of Saints. Furthermore the Emperor is the Father of their Fathers which makes it quite easy for their understanding to view at themself as "Angels of Death". Every Marine knows that, knows that he has become more than human, but this does not release them from their duty, their duty to defend humanity.

If you have read the "Hells Reach" SM Battles Novel you have two complete different points of view. The Black Templars rush against their foes to destroy them, a death foe can no further harm the citizens of the imperium. Though the Salamanders stay at the fortifications of a refugee complex to save the civilians from a counter attack that might happen. Both of them do their duty. This is the same dilema every exterminatus has. Would you sacrifice millions of people to propably save billions of them? Or would you try to fight back and risk that the enemy might spread and infest other planets before you can contain him?

Some Chapters believe the only way to protect humanity is to fight its enemies, others believe the only way is to protect its people. Both try to achieve the same thing, both might be right, both might fail. When a species fights for its survival, individuals do not matter. This is the strength of authorities like the Astartes or Inquisitions. They take the choises others are to weak to take. They a free from mercy but may be blinded by hate. The matter is not if their behaviour is acceptable or not, the matter is that it is needed.

This is the drama and darkness of WH40k. That humankind has to sacrifice its own humanity to stay alive. What has once been a glorious race on the peak of its cultural and technology advance has been brough to one knee by its own misery, damned to fight in agony for its sheer survival.

careful! Your words just put a chain around your neck…….survival of the species means individuals don't matter? Be very careful……..because the whole theme of wh40k could well be that the ends do NOT justify the means….that the 10,000 year tyranny of the imperium might actually be STRENGTHENING chaos, not denying it………that these 'hard' decisions made by inquisitors and senators are damning us all to oblivion…………

Well, if they did not took this "decisions" the imperium would be damned too. The only question is "when". Nine millina ago or five millenias ahead.

The reason an exterminatus is orderd is to contain a specific thread that cant be fought in conventional manner (Because there are no reenforcements in time or the enemy is just too strong) before it is able to "infest" other planets and further spread into the system. It is the last choice a chapter master/captain or inquisitor can order and with it comes serious consequences. A world is ultimatly lost to the imperium, millions of civilians are dead. But this is for the only reson to save dozens of other worlds. It is a death sentence for a billion of souls and consignts them into oblivion. Nobody takes this easily but it is the duty of the office. When does a background become grimdark? Well, when the murder of millions is not a good, but the right choice.

And the battle against chaos is already a battle that will wage to the end of time. The emotions of the living are the pure essence the warp is made of, and in ultimate war even the most pius soldiers feeds the dark gods with his rightous hate. The only exeption might be individuals like sisters of silence or grey knights that can keep the power of their emotions as a ward against the warp but everytime a blood angels death company marine goes into berserk mode, khorne is smiling.

The dark gods do not care who is winning, all they care for is an unending war and that the emperor/kaela mensha kaine does not rise again.

Your last sentence is precisely my point

Chaos is winning so long as there exists war and misery….peace kills Chaos, not space marines or battleships….the setting is Grimdark because the Imperium is fighting the wrong war the wrong way; ultimately, we're losing, bad. And the more we fight losing, the more we lose….so, as it currently stands, of course individual normal people don't factor in…..but the status quo is untenable….the status quo is a pathway to ultimate destruction…necrons and tyranids and enslavers can ultimately defeat Chaos (by wiping out all material life); but that's not a very happy victory for humanity (or anybody else). So, ultimately, the answer to the thread's question could well be 'YES!' normal people do matter - even one soul in torment is feeding Chaos…but if all human souls suddenly knew peace, true peace, then what of Chaos? Nothing but an endless field of calm energy. Or so it seems to me…

Zappiel said:

They are so much more than this.

Genetic modification alone does not cover what wrought the Astartes. Science is not the only thing that saw their creation. They may not be gods, but they were created from the blood of the sons of a being who might as well be.

The Astartes are more than the product of genetic science - the Emperor's science alone wrought generations of supersoldiers before the Astartes… the Thunder Warriors and the Adeptus Custodes both were the result of genetic engineering more sophisticated and more advanced than any that had come before. The Primarchs were something more - a fusion of science and sorcery, the likes of which the universe had never before borne witness to.

The Astartes were made in the image of, and with the blood of, the Primarchs. The Primarchs were, if not literally then figuratively, gods of battle, the sons of the God-Emperor of Mankind. The Astartes are their sons, human beings who have been elevated and waxed transcendent by the blood of gods; they're heroes in the ancient greek sense, carrying the spark of the divine in their veins.

hmmmmmm….our notions of "the Divine" differ……..there is absolutely 0 % divinity in space marines……the Emprah (heresy alert!) is not a god….he's human, with psionic/'magic' powers; but he ain't no god. Sure, he was tougher than the four chaos 'gods'; but they ain't anything close to godly either. Hell, they're just castoff emotional wastage. He has no hint of omniscience nor omnipotence. I'm here to clear the bedazzlement from our eyes, so that we may clearly see our beloved space marines and their primarchs for what they really honestly are. None of this hero-worshipping, 'they are gods of war' sheit for me, thanx…..seems a bit too fanboyish, no? Now, don't get me wrong: space marines (and, well, war) is my Dark Angel; I love this ****….but let's not sugarcoat it; let's call it for what it is.

Zappiel said:

Heresy indeed! To compare the world of Warhammer 40k to our current concepts of faith and divinity is somewhat strange in the first place but let's try: The Emperor could in fact be viewed in a very similar light to the second coming of Jesus (Except that in 40k fluff the Emperor would have been born only slightly after Jesus (In what is now turkey). His Immortality from that point could be construed as one aspect of divinity. The Emperor is a much more aggressive individual (Again a correlation to biblical prophesy of the second coming). His Psychic powers go WAY beyond those of even a psyker primaris into the realm of miracles! (Such as the ability to "heal" machinery with but a touch! Overall; throughout the fluff we presented with a very convincing case for a fantasy version of divinity! Thus; with his Primarchs being the direct result of his genetics and his science we are presented with a group of twenty beings who are for all intents and being "Angels". (About half of whom turn on him in yet another biblical allegory!) The Space Marines are the direct result of the mixing of Primarch DNA with normal (Though still "best available" examples) Human DNA and you have something that could roughly be described as a demi-god!

All this is said with the Caveat that 40k is a fantasy fiction world and I do not mean to impugn anyone's very real religeous beliefs. Comparing 40k or D&D mythologies to actual religeous faith is a slippery place to go and I generally consider it a dangerous conversation.

Zappiel said:

Tell that to the untold quadrillions of people who worship him.

From the perspective of the citizenry of the Imperium, the Space Marines are the literal sons of the Emperor's own sons. They are, in that sense, figurative demigods. That they don't fit your personal definition does not change this notion.

Zappiel said:

Again, depends on one's definitions. I tend not to use the term Chaos Gods anyway - Ruinous Powers is a more fitting moniker, IMO. Even so, as much as they're nothing more than pseudosentient coalescences of emotion and thought… they're also fundamental forces in the universe, entities that defy easy comprehension in their ephemeral nature.

I'm here to clear the bedazzlement from our eyes, so that we may clearly see our beloved space marines and their primarchs for what they really honestly are.

Actually, what you seem to be trying to do is strip away the mystery and fantasy from a setting founded upon those things. 40k isn't hard science fiction - it's fantasy adorned with trappings that superficially resemble sci-fi. The 40k universe is one resplendent with the supernatural and the mysterious, one where logic and reason and plain truths are paths to self-deception and crippling delusion. It has more in common with myth and legend than anything else.

I'm just calling it for what it is.

now we're mixing up reality with 40k……I fully understand that, In Universe, the citizenry of the Imperium know their Emprah is God, and his space marines are the Angels of Death….that is clearly and well established. However, we poor muggles stuck in the 21st century have a certain perspective on things that is more…objective. We know more than ANYONE in the 40k universe; we can see the whole thing. Now, from OUR perspective (and this has nothing to do with personal preferences regarding religiousity or god), we can clearly see that space marines are NOT in any way shape or form godly; they're men with a cool health-care package and a lot of spare aggression.

To be clear: it is not my intention to steal any mystery or wonder from the universe; far from it. I am beholden to the belief that 40k is NOT hard science fiction (although what a dark dark future 40k would be if it was pure sci fi!!!) but is in fact space fantasy. However, 40k is based on the rules of our physical universe - it really only slips beyond hard sf with its conceptions of the Warp and psykers. Therefore, we can and should regard things in 40k with a scientific eye, so far as it goes. With that in mind, our beloved Astartes are perfectly explainable.

I like 'Ruinous Powers' as a term as well, but it takes longer to type……

(oh, and I'm not sure they can be classed as 'fundamental forces' in our universe: they didn't exist until the Old Ones' experiments got out of hand, meaning the actual forces we regard as the Ruinous Powers are not universal in nature……although the energy field/dimension known as the Warp is presumably intrinsic to reality.)

As for the Emprah being godly, well…….to borrow an example from star trek (gasp! great Scott, don't go there!), let us look at Q: Q has more power in the snap of his fingers than the Emprah could ever dream of…..and there is no way in hell any of us would consider Q to be a god - massively, sickeningly powerful, yes; but no god. Again, I don't deny that, in universe, Imperial citizens can, do, and must worship him as god; I'm merely stating that WE shouldn't. We have the perspective and objectivity to see things in 40k for how they 'really' would be; we can imagine ourselves there, and can see it through our own eyes. Our characters can worship the Emprah and revere the Astartes; but we are objective, we (more or less) know what's going on.[And just to clear up a couple points: the Immortal Emperor of Mankind was born 9000 years before Christ, in ancient Anatoly (yes, Turkey), the birthplace of human civilization as we currently understand it. Immortality does not equate with godliness (elsewise, every vampire would be a god, and what a tiresome pantheon that would be…). And I would argue that His ability to heal machinery is merely Him telling the Star Dragon/'Deus in Machina' to do it (which is, of course, a tremendously powerful thing to do, too….)]

(and having said all that, i too agree that 40k is a perfect vehicle for mythic exploration and legendary exploits; none of what i've said impinges upon the experience of a galactic citizen stuck in the grimdark….I merely want us 2k people to keep our perspective and not go crazy worshipping a bunch of bloodthirsty goons as gods…..war and tyranny suck in real life; but in the grimdark, hell yes!)