Long time lurker, first time poster. I saw that the second edution Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay forums are no longer here. I went over to Strike To Stun and there's a forum for something called Zweihander Grim & perilous RPG. It looks like Warhammer, but different than third edition. Looks kind of like second edition.

Is that a new Warhammer product? Anyone else play testing it? I haven't seen any downloads for it here.

It is an indepentend product develop by fans of WFRP. It followed the guidelines of WFRP2 for a long time but has evolved a bit further since. It is in no way an official product belonging to any line of Warhammer.

More of this upcoming (released hopefully at the beginning of next year) can be found at What is Grim&Perilous?

Considering that the OP has visited the forums (strike), and under the assumption that he can read, and considering his username here, I'd say that the post was not meant as a question, but more a subtle hint-hint-hinte-ti-hint-hint to others that Twei-hander was around

Hsssss! Don't spoil this!

The official statement of the glorious Empire is that no such things as "Spivos" exist. They are like skaven. And by that I mean, silence.

Now that you put it like that, I'm reading forum Nicks but imagining ruddy great rat-men behind the keyboards everywhere. pecking away with filthy paws and chewing the tips of their tails.

Warhammmer2eForever said:

Sorry for the late reply on this!

ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG is an independent retroclone of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay . It has nothing to do with Fantasy Flight Games . It's being developed to support the Warhammer world, along with any other GM-created campaign that wishes to emulate a low fantasy and gritty "grim & perilous" playstyle. It fits a vision that parallels Andrzej Sapkowski's world of The Witcher , Glen Cook's Black Company and other Renaissance-inspired stories. There are very few RPGs which marries gritty violence and social intrigue with a mature tone. ZWEIHÄNDER is being written to cement this sort of playstyle with a universal ruleset (similar in application to GURPS).

As already mentioned, you can learn more about it over at http://grimandperilous.com or get weekly updates on its progress at http://www.facebook.com/grimandperilous

Speaking of ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG …

Our new editor came onboard a few weeks ago. We’re in the middle of cleaning up the character creation chapter, and have outlined a few immediate considerations you’ll make when creating your first "Grim & Perilous" character. Take a look at a sample of what we’re writing, and let us know if we’re hitting close to the mark:

http://grimandperilous.com/?p=212

I love this part

"ZWEIHÄNDER assumes that player characters were normal, everyday people (or as normal as they could be in any fantasy world), until dire circumstances recast their fate."

It is something that wfrpg 3 took away from the warhammer world by opening a gap between PCs and NPCs, both in power level and game mechanics. I would love to see it back.

Cheers,

Yepes

Thanks for the information, it sounds quite interesting.

However, given that your RPG is not related to FFGs WFRP, and that your product is commercial I think you should be careful with posting advertisements in the FFG fora. I'm not saying you're breaching the TOS, but you're coming quite close (in my non-expert opinion).

Public Beta 2: “GRIMDARK Edition” Ready!. Titled “GRIMDARK Edition”, it includes all of the gritty, perilous adventure mechanics you’d come to expect from ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG!

We’ve prepared the vast majority of what’s been internally playtested into one single document. It includes character creation, combat, wilderness travel and more! While some parts of the playtest are not quite ready for GRIMDARK Edition, this document includes practically everything you need to build characters, equip them, run combat, engage in wilderness exploration, fight perilous foes and more!

Download the free public open beta here: http://grimandperilous.com/?p=663

I'll bite. What about this game is better than the existing second edition? Specifically, I'll divide this question into parts.

What are the problems with second edition and how does this game fix them?

What does this game add in terms of game design improvements (eg better gameplay, better narrative, etc)?

What differentiates this game from any other fantasy heartbreaker?

What is the hook for this game other than skirting around the WFRP setting?

I haven't looked too deeply into the game, but the draw for me would be an RPG with the WFRP 1st/2nd flavour without having to cowtow to GW and the Fantasy Battles storylines. What draws many people to WFRP is the grim and gritty "down in the gutters" type of fantasy RPG (as opposed to D&D and most other RPGs). Which has been more and more assaulted on all sides by GW changing the tone of the world to more high fantasy.

Basically, investing in an RPG setting where the creators are more likely to have the RPG as their main priority.

Thanks for the inquiry!

Previous editions of WFRP suffered from serious issues with skill distributions between specific lines of careers. It created lopsided career paths that severely impacted the way percentile math worked. While on the surface, two careers deep did little to upset the inherent balance. But once you got three+ careers in, you could visibly see the cracks. Couple that with an unbalanced distribution model of talents and advance bumps, and the game became a mathematical nightmare where you had players who were four careers deep, but didn't have an even, fair distribution of skills, advances and talents between them.

ZWEIHÄNDER introduces a "fairer" model, creating an even distribution of skills, talents and bonus advances over each profession. Additionally, it creates a broader path model by archetype. This means that every archetype has 13 nested professions below it, which models the old career paths but allows people to move between archetypes without unhinging the skill distributions. It is a far more elegant solution: no profession gets more than two skills in any one primary attribute, with exceptions made only for the Folklore, Toughness, Rumor, Simple Melee and Simple Ranged skills.

Combat is faster, offers more options and removes a lot of the oddities from prior editions of WFRP. It also divorces the idea of hit point and wound tracking, using a narrative element to trend how hurt a character is, how much stress they're suffering from and when they suffer critical injuries.

Characters possess specific personality attributes, which rest on an "alignment scale" between Order and Chaos. Actions that are deemed to follow their order attribute can grow, granting additional fate points. Actions that follow the chaos attribute can grow as well, granting afflictions, madness, mutation and insanities.

I am not familiar with what the term "fantasy heartbreaker" means. I am assuming you mean whether this is a true retroclone or not. It is, but it isn't. In many ways, the game stands on its own two legs, differentiating itself from WFRP but feels familiar both thematically and rule-wise. I would invite you to read the " What Is ZWEIHÄNDER ? " on the website here to learn more: http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=8

In essence, it divorces the Old World entirely from its ruleset but embraces the down in the gutter, gritty aspect thematically throughout the work. We call this "grim & perilous gaming", which resonates throughout the work.

Download the short introduction chapter to learn more about Z WEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dejjcm3hfv65fvi/ZWEIHANDER_Introduction.pdf?dl=0

Thank you for responding. I'm still kind of unclear about what makes the game "grim and perilous." What specifically about the rules makes this the case. In addition, what about being "grim and perilous" is fun to play? "Grim and perilous" is more of a buzzword than a descriptor of play. Are characters more likely to die? In what ways (less health, tougher enemies, bad starting stats in comparison to NPCs, etc)? What about the mechanics you have chosen adds to gameplay and how does it do so?

A fantasty heartbreak refers to the glut of products in the 90s that people published that were basically just their D&D houserules with one or two good novel ideas buried in the mechanics. Basically a game that has one spark of creativity buried under just copying D&D. So what parts of WFRP/BRP is this system copying and why? What is the BRP engine offering your game? What parts of WFRP are you keeping and why? Having a good reason for this these things beyond "because it was in the last game" is really important for good game design.

Thank you for responding. I'm still kind of unclear about what makes the game "grim and perilous." What specifically about the rules makes this the case. In addition, what about being "grim and perilous" is fun to play? "Grim and perilous" is more of a buzzword than a descriptor of play. Are characters more likely to die? In what ways (less health, tougher enemies, bad starting stats in comparison to NPCs, etc)? What about the mechanics you have chosen adds to gameplay and how does it do so?

A fantasty heartbreak refers to the glut of products in the 90s that people published that were basically just their D&D houserules with one or two good novel ideas buried in the mechanics. Basically a game that has one spark of creativity buried under just copying D&D. So what parts of WFRP/BRP is this system copying and why? What is the BRP engine offering your game? What parts of WFRP are you keeping and why? Having a good reason for this these things beyond "because it was in the last game" is really important for good game design.

Wow! It really seems you are asking him to sell you the product!

There is information about the game in the web page and there you can download the full game for free to give it look and form your own opinion about it, if it would interest you.

Thank you for responding. I'm still kind of unclear about what makes the game "grim and perilous." What specifically about the rules makes this the case. In addition, what about being "grim and perilous" is fun to play? "Grim and perilous" is more of a buzzword than a descriptor of play. Are characters more likely to die? In what ways (less health, tougher enemies, bad starting stats in comparison to NPCs, etc)? What about the mechanics you have chosen adds to gameplay and how does it do so?

A fantasty heartbreak refers to the glut of products in the 90s that people published that were basically just their D&D houserules with one or two good novel ideas buried in the mechanics. Basically a game that has one spark of creativity buried under just copying D&D. So what parts of WFRP/BRP is this system copying and why? What is the BRP engine offering your game? What parts of WFRP are you keeping and why? Having a good reason for this these things beyond "because it was in the last game" is really important for good game design.

Wow! It really seems you are asking him to sell you the product!

There is information about the game in the web page and there you can download the full game for free to give it look and form your own opinion about it, if it would interest you.

Well, the point of this thread is to sell people on the product, isn't it? He's free to not respond, but I looked at the website and it told me a lot less than his post did.

Thank you for responding. I'm still kind of unclear about what makes the game "grim and perilous." What specifically about the rules makes this the case. In addition, what about being "grim and perilous" is fun to play? "Grim and perilous" is more of a buzzword than a descriptor of play. Are characters more likely to die? In what ways (less health, tougher enemies, bad starting stats in comparison to NPCs, etc)? What about the mechanics you have chosen adds to gameplay and how does it do so?

A fantasty heartbreak refers to the glut of products in the 90s that people published that were basically just their D&D houserules with one or two good novel ideas buried in the mechanics. Basically a game that has one spark of creativity buried under just copying D&D. So what parts of WFRP/BRP is this system copying and why? What is the BRP engine offering your game? What parts of WFRP are you keeping and why? Having a good reason for this these things beyond "because it was in the last game" is really important for good game design.

Wow! It really seems you are asking him to sell you the product!

There is information about the game in the web page and there you can download the full game for free to give it look and form your own opinion about it, if it would interest you.

Well, the point of this thread is to sell people on the product, isn't it? He's free to not respond, but I looked at the website and it told me a lot less than his post did.

Thanks for the feedback and questions!

Send in a full-page review of the product by email (250 to 500 words) by January 15th, and I'll send you a free physical copy of the book once it's ready. We'll publish the review - good, bad or indifferent - on our home website.

Reviews must be written in English, both clear and concise. While we like praise, we also want to hear constructive criticism. Reviews including overt negativity or language which isn't deemed constructive will not be posted.

Reach out to me by private message here, so we can email one another.

Best,

Daniel

Thank you for responding. I'm still kind of unclear about what makes the game "grim and perilous." What specifically about the rules makes this the case. In addition, what about being "grim and perilous" is fun to play? "Grim and perilous" is more of a buzzword than a descriptor of play. Are characters more likely to die? In what ways (less health, tougher enemies, bad starting stats in comparison to NPCs, etc)? What about the mechanics you have chosen adds to gameplay and how does it do so?

A fantasty heartbreak refers to the glut of products in the 90s that people published that were basically just their D&D houserules with one or two good novel ideas buried in the mechanics. Basically a game that has one spark of creativity buried under just copying D&D. So what parts of WFRP/BRP is this system copying and why? What is the BRP engine offering your game? What parts of WFRP are you keeping and why? Having a good reason for this these things beyond "because it was in the last game" is really important for good game design.

Wow! It really seems you are asking him to sell you the product!

There is information about the game in the web page and there you can download the full game for free to give it look and form your own opinion about it, if it would interest you.

Well, the point of this thread is to sell people on the product, isn't it? He's free to not respond, but I looked at the website and it told me a lot less than his post did.

Thanks for the feedback and questions!

Send in a full-page review of the product by email (250 to 500 words) by January 15th, and I'll send you a free physical copy of the book once it's ready. We'll publish the review - good, bad or indifferent - on our home website. [/size] Reviews must be written in English, both clear and concise. While we like praise, we also want to hear constructive criticism. Reviews including overt negativity or language which isn't deemed constructive will not be posted. [/size]

Reach out to me by private message here, so we can email one another.

Best,

Daniel

Challenge accepted!

I'm reading my way through it now. Mind you, I'm going to focus a lot more on mechanics, as that's where most of my interest lies.

With WFRP it is the setting as much as the rules that make the roleplaying experience. Likewise with Pathfinder, the setting is probably more of a reason to game it rather than the rules.

My worry for Zweihander is that without its own campaign setting, that sets it apart it will be just another set of RPG rules, that can be used to play scenarios from other systems. Are you going to create your own world for Zweihander, that is as grim and gritty as the "Old World"?

With WFRP it is the setting as much as the rules that make the roleplaying experience. Likewise with Pathfinder, the setting is probably more of a reason to game it rather than the rules.

My worry for Zweihander is that without its own campaign setting, that sets it apart it will be just another set of RPG rules, that can be used to play scenarios from other systems. Are you going to create your own world for Zweihander, that is as grim and gritty as the "Old World"?

The Gamemaster's section will include "Grim & Perilous Campaign Seeds". These will be four to six page campaign settings. Some of these tentatively include:

• Grim & Perilous: Victoriana
• Grim & Perilous: Edwardian London
• Grim & Perilous: Virginia Colony
• Grim & Perilous: Bakumatsu Shogunate
• Grim & Perilous: Old Testament

I will also be including my own campaign world in the campaign seed section.

Providing that the rule setting catches on, the plan is to release supplements to the core book, with new background information, rules and additive Professions for these same campaign worlds and new ones. Enterprising buyers can release their own campaigns worlds as well, given that the book and its supplements will be released following a Creative Commons Share-Alike license, as indicated here: http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=95

Otherwise, the game is being released with a world agnostic approach.

Many role-playing games use alignment to help illustrate character attitudes and temperament. In ZWEIHÄNDER , characters have a similar approach to overall character disposition, which directly impacts their personalities, how Lady Fate shows favor and the lure of power subvertly corrupts them. A Grim & Perilous campaign is not the stories of people who change the world. It is a story of a world that changes the people within it.

A strong arm or a slow wit are not the measures which fully define a ZWEIHÄNDER Character, far from it. Weaknesses and strengths are not expressed by the same categorizations used for beasts of burden or slaves. Nor indeed, are they simply a general predictor of outward behavior, but rather a deep and personal pair of flaws and strengths which define your very existence. In this world, the true monster is not a scaled drake or a pack of faceless bandits for you to conquer and parade through the main thoroughfares, where you are showered with adoration and coin. Rather, it is your fellow man, whose words conceal their intentions until you run afoul of their cruel intentions.

In this stage of creation, you will select one critical value which will largely determine your Character’s personality for both good and ill. These Temperaments are role-playing tools, meant to aid you as you determine the choices and judgements your Character makes. In short, they are your weapons and weaknesses when engaging in tense social situations (such as during Social Intrigue). Put more simply and in broader terms, the first you select will likely be what keeps you alive, more than any well-drawn arrow. The latter is what will likely be your cause of demise. These two Temperaments are defined in the game as your Order and Chaos Temperaments.

Learn more here: http://grimandperilous.com/?p=684

Thank you for responding. I'm still kind of unclear about what makes the game "grim and perilous." What specifically about the rules makes this the case. In addition, what about being "grim and perilous" is fun to play? "Grim and perilous" is more of a buzzword than a descriptor of play. Are characters more likely to die? In what ways (less health, tougher enemies, bad starting stats in comparison to NPCs, etc)? What about the mechanics you have chosen adds to gameplay and how does it do so?

A fantasty heartbreak refers to the glut of products in the 90s that people published that were basically just their D&D houserules with one or two good novel ideas buried in the mechanics. Basically a game that has one spark of creativity buried under just copying D&D. So what parts of WFRP/BRP is this system copying and why? What is the BRP engine offering your game? What parts of WFRP are you keeping and why? Having a good reason for this these things beyond "because it was in the last game" is really important for good game design.

Wow! It really seems you are asking him to sell you the product!

There is information about the game in the web page and there you can download the full game for free to give it look and form your own opinion about it, if it would interest you.

Well, the point of this thread is to sell people on the product, isn't it? He's free to not respond, but I looked at the website and it told me a lot less than his post did.

Thanks for the feedback and questions!

Send in a full-page review of the product by email (250 to 500 words) by January 15th, and I'll send you a free physical copy of the book once it's ready. We'll publish the review - good, bad or indifferent - on our home website. [/size] Reviews must be written in English, both clear and concise. While we like praise, we also want to hear constructive criticism. Reviews including overt negativity or language which isn't deemed constructive will not be posted. [/size]

Reach out to me by private message here, so we can email one another.

Best,

Daniel

Challenge accepted!

I'm reading my way through it now. Mind you, I'm going to focus a lot more on mechanics, as that's where most of my interest lies.

Perfect, that's really where we need our reviews to focus. I look forward to reading it!

Message me here once ready.

Best,

Daniel

Interesting campaign seed selection! However considering that Zweihander and its careers are largely based on a late medieval / early renaissance setting, at least four out of those five are going to be difficult to fit round the careers at least!

My initial intention was to use it to play scenarios from WFRP 1st and 2nd edition, but with the second beta the game has changed quite a lot. Right now I am not sure who easy is to translate stats from WFRP 1/2 editions to Zweihander.

By chance, Will there be a bestiary with creatures close to those in the Warhammer world? Like, orcs, goblins, undead, skaven, beastmen and daemons?

My initial intention was to use it to play scenarios from WFRP 1st and 2nd edition, but with the second beta the game has changed quite a lot. Right now I am not sure who easy is to translate stats from WFRP 1/2 editions to Zweihander.

By chance, Will there be a bestiary with creatures close to those in the Warhammer world? Like, orcs, goblins, undead, skaven, beastmen and daemons?

Translation will be extremely easy. The math "balance" was intentionally build to be compatible with WFRP 2E. To translate characters, pick comparable Professions in place of Careers. However, only translate completed Careers. To adapt unfinished Careers, simply add Unique Advances.

I am in the process of reauthoring "With A Little Help From My Friends" to help illustrate how it works.

The bestiary will be filled with several stock creatures, instantly recognizable to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay fans. This will include additional rules on how to create your own foes, following a similar model to the Slaughter Margin of old. However, it will revolve around "Tiers" of play: Basic, Intermediate and Advanced. Everything, down to wild dogs, orc warbosses, revenants and even wyverns adheres to the Tier model. We haven't released this portion of the beta yet, but it will allow enterprising Gamemasters to create a creature type at any Tier. This means you can build something akin to wyvern younglings at Basic Tier, wyvern adults at Intermediate Tier and wyvern elders at Advanced Tier. It is an extremely flexible model that feel instantly familiar.