Biggest Outstanding Issues

By gribble, in Game Mechanics

Posted at

GM Chris said:

we have to remove our minds from the "d20 mindset" where we only control our own player's actions mathematically and perhaps add a bonus to another player. It's… well… "deeper" than that. Each player's rolls collaboratively tell the story, in all aspects.

This bears repeating/emphasising. One of the things that really struck me with EotE was how the players collaborated a lot more than in Saga. Whereas previously the groups success was largely determined by the aggregate of individual successes, in EotE there was a lot more "I can't think of a good way to directly use this advantage/triumph, but I'll use it to set something up for another character".

That's a good thing IMO, and fits the vibe of SW well.

Posted at

gribble said:

GM Chris said:

we have to remove our minds from the "d20 mindset" where we only control our own player's actions mathematically and perhaps add a bonus to another player. It's… well… "deeper" than that. Each player's rolls collaboratively tell the story, in all aspects.

This bears repeating/emphasising. One of the things that really struck me with EotE was how the players collaborated a lot more than in Saga. Whereas previously the groups success was largely determined by the aggregate of individual successes, in EotE there was a lot more "I can't think of a good way to directly use this advantage/triumph, but I'll use it to set something up for another character".

That's a good thing IMO, and fits the vibe of SW well.

and it really could be that a lot of the players in my games are fairly big 4e and Pathfinder gamers. It'd be nice to ahve something as a reference though.

An example from one of my games was the PC rolled no net success but a triumph while attacking a droid spraying pheramones over a building (kashyk in flames for those interested). I asked her what she wanted to do with it and she stared at me blankly. none of the other three players knew what to do. She looked at the cheat sheet for triumph and advantage and stared blankly at me again. I offered 2-3 suggestions, but nothing seemed to inspire her.

To her credit, she said eventually that she wanted to dodge about and force the droid to spray another droid instead of her. I liked the idea and made the roll, and the scene moved on, but that one triumph caused a minor trainwreck in the moment. i found that disturbing and think that some vague boundaries besides "turning the tide" could have made that less awkward.

teamwork is good, and That is one thing I really like about this game.

The d20 mindset is strong, but only because defnition was key. Leaving definition is all well and good, but it's very hard for players to adapt, and I think making that transition easier could help the final product.

it only takes 2 sentences.

:)

PS. just thought of something. would you as GMs allow a player to spend a triumph to let another player crit on their next hit?

Posted at

Thebearisdriving said:

PS. just thought of something. would you as GMs allow a player to spend a triumph to let another player crit on their next hit?

No - but I'd let them upgrade a couple dice if they came up with a good reason. And that might get them there!

I'd also let them drive off a single henchman or a group of mooks with a single triumph.

Posted at

aramis said:

Thebearisdriving said:

PS. just thought of something. would you as GMs allow a player to spend a triumph to let another player crit on their next hit?

No - but I'd let them upgrade a couple dice if they came up with a good reason. And that might get them there!

I'd also let them drive off a single henchman or a group of mooks with a single triumph.

But driving off a group of minions is like 2-4 crits at once, a hench men is fairly big too…

and this is where I get hung up. what seems reasonable on the one hand, when placed in mechanical terms is a lot stronger than people might think.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong aramis, but it's that arbitrary nature of it that bothers me, that leads to people not knowing what to do with it.

For instance, you say it can't add a crit onto a players attack, but then turn around and say it can "kill" a group of minions, which is the same as a successful attack plus possible autofire or crits.

so what is said is that it can't crit, but it can do much more than a single crit, which …kinda has the tendency to…confuse people.

I DO NOT want the game defined to death, but I would like a hint, some structure, maybe some limitting factrs or some extra suggestions. examples of what triumph could do could be put in the example of play section (if there is one in the final book).

I suppose I've made my point. Gotta throw my hat in the ring after all.

Posted at

Thebearisdriving said:

aramis said:

Thebearisdriving said:

PS. just thought of something. would you as GMs allow a player to spend a triumph to let another player crit on their next hit?

No - but I'd let them upgrade a couple dice if they came up with a good reason. And that might get them there!

I'd also let them drive off a single henchman or a group of mooks with a single triumph.

But driving off a group of minions is like 2-4 crits at once, a hench men is fairly big too…

and this is where I get hung up. what seems reasonable on the one hand, when placed in mechanical terms is a lot stronger than people might think.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong aramis, but it's that arbitrary nature of it that bothers me, that leads to people not knowing what to do with it.

For instance, you say it can't add a crit onto a players attack, but then turn around and say it can "kill" a group of minions, which is the same as a successful attack plus possible autofire or crits.

so what is said is that it can't crit, but it can do much more than a single crit, which …kinda has the tendency to…confuse people.

I DO NOT want the game defined to death, but I would like a hint, some structure, maybe some limitting factrs or some extra suggestions. examples of what triumph could do could be put in the example of play section (if there is one in the final book).

I suppose I've made my point. Gotta throw my hat in the ring after all.

Posted at

aramis said:

aramis said:

Thebearisdriving said:

driven off is very different than killed… driven off retreat to out of range, but despair brings them back without resetting their losses. Crit, on the other hand, kill minions and henchmen outright… which is much more final. It's a morale effect, not a termination.

That's a point, but I'm not worried about what a GM can do with despair. As a storyteller I (we) need to interpret the narrative and mechanical implications of dice rolls and descriptive actions constantly. I'm thinking from a player perspective.

There are two written uses for triumph. Inflict a crit, and "turn the tide."

every non-crit use for turn the tide has been much much better than inflicting a crit, which means that the narrative power of triumph is far superior to the sole listed mechanical benefit. But as a player, the only mechanical benefit written guides what they can do, if even subconsciously. The rules as written, in my experience running the game, seem to not encourage player imagination. At least not without some effort on my part to get their brains going.

But again, it's just my observation.

Posted at

Thebearisdriving said:

That's a point, but I'm not worried about what a GM can do with despair. As a storyteller I (we) need to interpret the narrative and mechanical implications of dice rolls and descriptive actions constantly. I'm thinking from a player perspective.

There are two written uses for triumph. Inflict a crit, and "turn the tide."

every non-crit use for turn the tide has been much much better than inflicting a crit, which means that the narrative power of triumph is far superior to the sole listed mechanical benefit. But as a player, the only mechanical benefit written guides what they can do, if even subconsciously. The rules as written, in my experience running the game, seem to not encourage player imagination. At least not without some effort on my part to get their brains going.

But again, it's just my observation.

As a player, you need as much guidance for despair as the GM does - because YOU get to spend the NPC's despair, not the GM.

There is one other effect you've ignored, tho' - despair can replicate any one threat-generated effect, up to 3 threat symbols, and triumph likewise any one effect requiring up to 3 advantage symbols.

"Turn the tide of Battle" is WAY overpowered as a phrasing, and needs strong advice.

Posted at

Thebearisdriving said:

and it really could be that a lot of the players in my games are fairly big 4e and Pathfinder gamers.

An example from one of my games was the PC rolled no net success but a triumph while attacking a droid spraying pheramones over a building (kashyk in flames for those interested). I asked her what she wanted to do with it and she stared at me blankly. none of the other three players knew what to do. She looked at the cheat sheet for triumph and advantage and stared blankly at me again. I offered 2-3 suggestions, but nothing seemed to inspire her.

Duuuuude. That's… rough. That's a symptom of lack of creativity. :-( I'm sure she's quite creative, don't misunderstand! But it's clear from that example that her ability to be "creative in an RPG" isn't something she's had a lot of practice with. This is isn't her fault - it's the fact of her RPG experience telling her she didn't have to be . There were "specifics" for everything in the games she's played.

Bear… you're going to need to "re-train" some of your players, methinks. Crash-course. Hardcore time. I don't think they're "comfortable" being abstract in an RPG.

So… I've got suggestions for you!!! I think you should do a 1-shot or two (or maybe three) of a completely different RPG. One that's even MORE abstract. (I think there are better games out there than this short list, but I wanted to give you options that are readily and easily available. ) My recommendations:

- Dresden Files or Spirit of the Century: http://www.evilhat.com/home/spirit-of-the-century-2/ or http://www.evilhat.com/home/the-dresden-files-rpg-page/

An award winning and very abstract system from Evil Hat (Spirit of the Century is very cheap, btw), the FATE system will teach players how to get creative before the dice are rolled. (And after.)

- Dinosaurs… in Spaaace!!!: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/95309/Dinosaurs…in-Spaaace%21?term=dinosaurs

Greg Stoltze is a god. This system (and it's FREE version "…in Spaaace!", located here http://www.gregstolze.com/inSpaaace.zip ) is a system that is COMPLETELY narrative. No dice at all. It uses a token-based system to resolve conflict. Very eye-opening and will ***** slap players out of the d20 mindset.

- Mousegaurd: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/60496/Mouse-Guard-Roleplaying-Game

First of all, the setting is just amazing. But the burning wheel system (in my experience) really helps build "at the table" creativity.

- Fiasco: http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/

Though some wouldn't call it an "RPG" - but more of a group storytelling game, it's also extremely abstract (and just a ton of fun). But it's DESIGNED for 1-shot games that last a couple hours.

I think you need to shock your players into this kind of play, man. And I think it'll be GOOD FOR THEM. In my regular EotE beta group, I've got a player who drives DIRECTLY from a Pathfinder game to my house to play EotE. I watch him physically shake his head to "reset" for this kind of play. He's commented to me that if he hadn't had so much experience with Dresden Files… it'd be a hard transition for him.

Now… in the short-term. If your players NEED [sigh] ;-) a "reference" for triumph - just use the one for advantage. Treat Truimph as rolling 3 advantage (in addition to its other effect possibilites).