oh and to clairify i am the only force sensitive player in the group and its kinda understood that i will probably be the only one cause of intrest in rp'ing the magnitude of the spec and that those who poses the ability are rare to begin with.

After all the beta update releases… and some insight from some devs…

I'm toying with a house-rule talent(s) that would allow for Deflect and Redirect.

Lightsaber Deflect

[Tree Text]

When wielding a lightsaber, upgrade the difficulty of ranged attacks that target you. Despair also allows you to redirect some attacks.

[Detail Text]

Activation: Passive

Ranked: Yes

Trees: ??? (insert your Jedi trees here)

When wielding an ignited lightsaber, you upgrade the difficulty of any ranged attack that targets you by one for each rank of Lightsaber Deflect. In addition, if the attacker rolls a Despair, you gain the ability to dictate that the Despair results in a Redirect. A Redirect is an immediate ranged attack roll made by you, which uses your Discipline skill. This Redirect attack has a base damage equal to the weapon redirected and a max range of Medium. In all other respects, it functions as a normal ranged attack. Per the GM's discretion, some ranged attacks simply may not be able to be Deflected or Redirected, due to their nature or size.

Thoughts? I think it's a nice balance… and I'd probably put 2 or 3 ranks of it in a tree. (Or it might depend on the tree, with lightsaber-heavy focused trees gaining 3 ranks, and those with non-combat focuses only getting 1 rank. The cost of the talent (per rank) would vary greatly again by the tree type; with a Guardian Tree having ranks at 10xp, 15xp, and 25xp; and Consular getting 1 ranks at… say… 15xp.

What do you guys think?

GM Chris said:

My only thought on this is that upgrading a check while less powerful than adding a setback die vis defense, is much harder to counter, and It doesn't agree with the fiction o regardign flame throwers and etc being better at dealing with jedi than regular ranged weapons. Also, talents like precise aim are fairly subpar choices right now because very few things have defense worth using the talent on, and having "deflect" add to defense could give talents like that more merit, especially for jedi assassins.

That being said, I can hardly argue with a dev, and if that's what they've indicated, I'd do what they suggest.

I toyed with a similar idea in some other thread. Although I might be inclined to agree with driving bear above. Adding 1 to defence (either ranged and melee separate or a general boost - the only issue is the stacking of defence issue here) would make certain talents more useful in taking down these pesky Jedi (and its a better bonus), but it would do little to change the effects of flame throwers on Jedi - although I'd argue that those cannot be redirected even by rolling a despair.

By adding "only" a setback die, how would one treat redirect? 4 threats? 5? I think the upgrade is a better solution, you don't get the stacking of defence issue, and redirect activation is more logical, or intuitive if you will. Combined with the sense power, and perhaps a destiny point expenditure, the chances of rolling a despair increases a lot, while still not being overly beardy.

I was also thinking about a lightsaber block talent, along the same lines, but it might be over-kill. It could be included in the deflect talent, so not to get even more upgrades (potentially resulting in increasing difficulty) - but the general idea is that a despair rolled on a melee attack against a lightsaber wielding jedi would activate the sunder quality of the uct against the attacking weapon.

(cross-posted from D20 Radio Forums)

Using the defense option for deflect, I would make a redirect something like (and this is largely spit balling) allowing the Jedi to make a ranged attack on their turn, using the stats of the weapon fired at them. The difficulty would originally be upgraded a couple steps, but each rank of redirect would downgrade the difficulty.

Less quirky that way. You get shot at, you may redirect.

Probably make it a you can't be hit style thing too. Tying it to despair or threat is fine, but makes it more clunky and random. But that's just me.

Good input, guys. Here's my thoughts:

@Thebearisdriving

1. Whoa, whoa… "insight from the devs" - don't interpret that like you did, LOL… I meant "talking about game premise and design theory for this project with Sterling and Jay." No dev I've spoken to has said anything about deflect/redirect at all. Ever. But I think I have a grasp for the level of fluidity/simplicity they went for in rules design. THAT's what I was trying to mirror…

2. Don't ever say you can't question a dev!! You **** well can! Your input is valid, always! Everyone's is!

3. The last sentance of the talent description was intended to ensure that the GM can put the kibosh on a Jedi "deflecting" a flame thrower or sonic pistol, or "redirecting" a slugthrower shot. Rather than lay out the specific weapon types that work/don't work with this ability - you simply leave it open ended enough for the GM to say what works and what doesn't for the talent. This is very fitting with the rules style of this game, I think… and allows Flame Throwers and other notoriously effective "jedi-killing" weapons to bypass this talent.

@Jegergryte

You're thinking the way I was. I toyed with the idea of Lightsaber Deflect adding defense dice, but decided on the upgrade to the attack difficulty instead, for all the reasons you mention.

@Dono

I wanted to go with something a bit simpler - and since my logic (see above) led to a difficulty upgrade vs. setback dice, the Despair = Redirect seemed highly inuitive and simple. I think about how this would play out at a table… and requiring each PC with this talent to consistently monitor the number of threat generated by each GM roll is… well… not fun. But if the GM rolls a Despair - everyone at the table will be able to recognize that quickly and easily. [shrug] I'm wasn't worried about the "once per round" thing… as this was very much a Saga constraint in it's introduction/theme. But the talent could easily say that Redirect can only be used a number of times per round equal to your ranks in it. [shrug] As far as the number of instances to TAKE those ranks - I think it's going to depend on the talent tree. I think many Jedi talent trees might have only ONE rank of this talent. Can the PC cross-specialize and pick it up 4 or 5 times? Sure. But that's a one trick-pony, considering the sheer amount of XP that would cost. Or, they've got enough XP to make them "Jedi Master" level… which I'm fine with. Using Lightsaber vs. Discipline for the Redirect attack roll… hmm… understand that I intentionally chose Discipiline because it was the "force using skill". I've always thought of Redirect as a use of The Force, as opposed to skill with a lightsaber. I'll put it to you this way… A dedicated fighter could have zero force use ability, but still learn to master the Lightsaber. Canon has kept true to this concept - with General Greivous being the prime example. Should Greivous be able to Redirect? No… So I don't see the Redirect attack being tied to one's skill with a Lightsaber. Rather, their skill with the Force. Is this balanced? (In other words - does this make Discipline "too good"?) I don't know. (Was the "Use the Force" skill "too good" in Saga? ;-) )

Another idea I had was treating Deflect similar to a Force Power with an ongoing effect. You have to sacrifice a Force Die to maintain it round-to-round. This might go a long way towards any balance issues.

A thought, in regards to "cost to activate"…

Instead of Despair or Threat, have it cost Strain, but can only be used on an attack that missed.

A Strain cost will help keep Jedi PCs from constantly using this talent, and could probably even do away with making it a ranked talent, and doesn't invoke the possible issues of bad guys (especially major, end-of-story-arc big bads) getting slapped with a whole slew of Challenge Dice when attacking a Jedi character, one that will probably have the Defensive Control Upgrade for Sense as well.

Just a thought.

GM Chris said:

---I see what you did there ;-) ---

And Yes, it was. Totally. It was so broken in Saga edition with "One Check to Rule Them All". All Force users would max their CHA and take Skill Emphasis UtF, then bring the game to a screeching halt, especially in combat. i.e. Sith vs Jedi, Sith hits --> jedi does lightsaber parry. Jedi hits --> sith does lightsaber parry. Also, Force powers would roll max even at like 5th level. "DC 35 UtF check??? No problem!"

That's why it was better in Revised (though more cumbersome) with Sense, Alter, and Control. In my own Saga campaigns, I just Homebrewed it into a "Sense Force" check (WIS), a "Control Force" check (CON), and an "Alter Force" check (CHA).The Force skills reflected the descriptions and breakdowns laid out in the novel "I, Jedi" and the powers manifested with CON, INT, WIS and CHA. Way more well rounded. I'd love to see something like that in FFG with Cunning, Willpower, and Presence based skills.

Donovan Morningfire said:

^This

It makes more sense, since the Jedi is actually having to physically move and alter his/her stance and adjust the saber position to avoid being hit. The concentration needed to see something so fast coming towards you would be both physically and mentally taxing on the character.

How about having to invest a force die, like with the sense power - with the same limitation; against one attack that round: just like the sense power upgrade. Actually this talent could also requrie that sense upgrade and only build/improve upon it -> due to having a lightsaber activated you can spend a despair to redirect if you have that sense power active. With the sense power upgrades this could be limited to a maximum of two ranged attacks per round… unless there is some errata I haven't noticed that says the sense power upgrade can be used against all attacks in a given round.