I've never been happy with the way Gear acquisition is handled in DH. It simply doesn't have the right feel to it and over emphasizes money. The system it uses is far to adventurercentric. It almost feels like the word Thrones should be exchanged for Gold Pieces and is a short jump from the acquisition of mad loot mindset that comes with tracking gp's on your character sheet.

So, for the past several months my group and I have been using a home brewed method of determining what items or gear and character can get and how much of it they can "afford". It's a method that fully abstracts the concept of income and, in doing such, better reflects characters who requisition items from their home organization or other organizations, as well as what they can get their Inquisitor to give them, or what they can simply lay their hands on through cold hard cash or any other resource intensive method that seems appropriate. It also eliminates some of the weird pricing scheme of items as well as issues with how/when/where acolytes get paid and how much. It fixes it by simply avoiding all of those questions all together.

As issues with items, cost, etc has come up (it always dose, doesn't it?) in another thread, I figured I would post the rules write-up I did for my group regarding the Gear Slot Method. It should be noted that I was inspired to work on this method by a post on Dark Reign which can be found HERE . I simply took the Uthred's ideas, tested them a lot and expanded them into something that worked fluidly.

Gear Slots
Each character gets a certain amount of "Gear Slots" based on the characters rank.

Rank & Gear
1: 2 Minoris, 3 Minima
2: 1 Majoris, 2 Minoris, 3 Minima
3: 1 Majoris, 3 Minoris, 3 Minima
4: 2 Majoris, 3 Minoris, 3 Minima
5: 3 Majoris, 3 Minoris, 4 Minima
6: 1 Extremis, 3 Majoris, 3 Minoris, 4 Minima
7: 2 Extremis, 3 Majoris, 3 Minoris, 5 Minima
8: 1 Terminus, 2 Extremis, 3 Majoris, 3 Minoris, 5 Minima
9: 1 Terminus, 2 Extremis, 3 Majoris, 4 Minoris, 5 Minima

The ratings for the Gear Slots are an indication of the items cost, power, and status that it confers to the owner. They range from Minima (the lowest rating, through Terminus, the highest rating. Each Gear Slot can hold one item of equal or lesser Rating and is an indication of the character's resources. For the purpose of Firearms, the weapon and one reloads worth of default regular ammo or 12 shots for guns with a clip size of 2 or less is will fill one Gear Slot. As long as the weapon remains in the Gear Slot, the character will be able to get default regular ammo for it and one reload without having to free up another Gear Slot (assuming the character can find the ammo as usual). If they want specialty ammo for the weapon, however, they must use another Gear Slot for that ammo.

An empty Gear Slot is an indication that the character has some free cash, an IOU note, is able to requisition an item from the arbiters armory, or anything else that would indicate that the character hasn't tapped all their potential resources yet. A filled Gear Slot shows a portion of the characters resources being eaten up by not only acquiring said item, but maintaining it (such as keeping a full clip of Bolter rounds, etc).

Quality Level

• All gear is assumed to be of Average quality. However, an acolyte may chose to make fill a Gear Slot with either Poor Quality gear or Best Quality gear.
• If Poor Quality gear is taken, the gear can be chosen at one Rating less then listed and it's Availability will be one level more common.
• If Best Quality is chosen, the gear is considered to be one Rating higher then listed and it's Availability will be one level rarer
• Nobles, due to their vast resources, are an exception.
• The default quality of gear that a noble gets for the listed Rating is considered to be Best Quality gear. It's availability, however, will be one level more rare.
• If a noble chooses to take an Average quality item, then its Rating will be one less then listed and the availability will be the availability listed for the item.
• If a Noble chooses to take a Poor Quality item, then it's Rating will be reduced by two and it's listed availability will be one level more common.

Fragile Gear, and Signature Items

It is likely that at some point the characters will gain ownership, through fair means or foul, of some equipment they would like to hold onto. If the character has a free gear slot of equal or greater value, they can simply place the item there. If, however, all their gear slots are taken (and as such all their resources tied up) they can still hold onto the gear, but it is considered "fragile". This simply means that without sufficient resources invested in keeping or maintaining the item, it can more easily be lost, damaged, or stolen. This can easily be remedied by placing it in a gear slot when one becomes available if the item is worth the effort.

Signature items are the opposite of Fragile Gear and are represented with two new talents: Signature Item and Signature Items.

Signature Item
Through the heavy use of an item or the shear fact that no one can recall a time when they saw the character without it, a certain item has become synonymous with the characters name. This could be a psykers focus, "Vera" the guardsmen's riffle, or even an adepts portable cogitator. What ever the item, it is almost always with the character and shows exceptional resilience to being stolen, broken beyond repair, or lost. If such were to ever happen and the item could be replaced, then the character will always have an easy time acquiring another like the old one.
Effects : One item is assigned to this trait. That item no longer counts as taking up a gear slot and the character will always have an easy time retrieving it when separated from it or acquiring a new one if the old one is somehow destroyed.
Cost : 100 xp and a lot of in-game time spent "bonding" with said item
Note : this trait may only be taken once and not in conjunction with Signature Items.

Signature Items
Just like the Signature Item except that it covers a pair of items that are used in conjunction with one another. This could be a pair of dueling pistols, a certain sword and buckler, or a pair of servoskulls. The items that are used in conjunction with one another must be able to be easily and logically linked with one another and seen as a natural set.
Effects : A pair of items are assigned to this trait. They no longer count as taking up any gear slots and the character will always have an easy time retrieving them when separated from them or acquiring a new ones if either is somehow lost or destroyed.
Cost : 150 xp and a lot of in-game time spent "bonding" with the items
Note : this trait my only be taken once and can not be taken in conjunction with Signature Item.

Buying More Gear and Services

In order to purchase a new item, it goes without saying that the item must first be located. An Inquiry test is needed for this with a difficulty and base time frame determined by the availability of the item (plentiful to very rare) and the population of the area being searched. Every degree of success scored on the roll will reduce the time it takes to find the item by one unit (hours if it will take X amount of hours, weeks if it will take X amount of weeks). However, every degree of Failure will increase the time it takes to the next unit level (hours to days, days to weeks). In short:

?If the roll succeeds:
Time to Locate = Base Time - Degree of Success

?If the roll fails:
Time to Locate = Base Time + Degree of Failure in Unit Levels.

Once the item is found, a Bargain test can be made to possibly reduce the items Rating if necessary. If the Bargain check is successful, the Rating will be lowered by one level. However, if the check failed by three of more degrees, then the Rating will increase by one level. In order to successfully get the item (without resorting to theft of brute force), the items final Rating must be equal to or less then the gear slot it will be placed in. If the character has no gear slots open, they can still purchase items and services. However, they must either bring the items Rating below Minima at which time they may add it to their Found Gear as a fragile item or trading an Item in one of their slots for the one they are attempting to purchase.

The Peer Talent & Lore Skills

If the character has a Peer talent and/or Lore Skill relating to the group who he or she goes to looking for the item and it is an item that they would logically and commonly have access to, then it's availability will be increased once for the Peer Talent and once for the Lore Skill making it one to two levels easier to find. Having the right Peer talent will also reduce the items Rating by one level.

• For instance. If Psam the Psycho Scum went looking for a Bolt Pistol in the seedy districts of Sebillus using his knowledge of the Underworld (Common Lore [underworld]), the Bolt Pistol's Availability would be Scarce instead of Rare. If Psam had instead made a name for himself in the underworld or was otherwise a mover and shaker in criminal circles (Peer [underworld]) as opposed to learning all he could about the underworld, then the Bolt Pistol would have an Availability of Scarce and it's Rating would be reduced from Majoris to Minoris. If Psam had both knowledge of how to move through the underworld and where to find things (Common Lore [underworld]) as well as being a mover and shaker in various criminal circles (Peer [underworld]) then the Bolt Pistols Availability would be Average and it's rating would be reduced from Majoris to Minoris.

Turning Picked Gear Fragile & Fragile Gear Picked

At the beginning of every session, a character may chose to "abandon" one item in their Gear Slots making the item Fragile and, as such, no longer using a slot (and the characters attention, prayers, and resources). In game, this is represented by the character leaving it at home, locking it in a safe, or tossing it in the bottom of their backpack and not doing anything else with it (such as daily maintenance, replenishing ammo supplies, etc). They still have the item, but can lose I quite easily.

The Gear Tables with availability and rating can be found in PDF format HERE along with the above rules. The Tables contains most all the gear and weapons from the core book though some omissions were made to eliminate frivolous items that really don't need all the pomp and circumstance of the Gear Slots. Likewise, a selection of items and weapons have been included from IH, but I omitted any weapon that was a specific pattern. I also only included items that had a definite in game effect and use and, again, omit frivolous items that, by all right should just be given to a character who's looking to get one. There are also several new items (mostly in kit form). Call me lazy, but I didn't feel like removing the gear I made for my game or add in the specific pattern weapons.

If you think these rules might be of use to you but really want those custom items removed from the gear tables or would like to have the custom patters added, I can put the Base report that the tables are pulled from online as well and you can fiddle with it 'till your hearts content ;-) Just let me know and it will be done.

I have to say Graver, you really produce some quality rule sets. I was quite taken with your 40k morality model, and this is an equally nice approach to a matter which I often struggle with. I don't know that I will actually implement in my own game (just because it is already in process), but if I ever finish this campaign and start another, this is going right next to "assign XP by mission" on the list of house rules I will probably incorporate.

All in all, I find the system to complicated for my taste.

In general, I quite like the rules, though I'd probably make one or two talents for certain careers (mostly the techpriest) that allow acquisition of a few more gadgets. After all, with the rules given, the gadgeteer character techpriest has the smallest chances of gaining access to equipent as his fellowship, inquiry and barter values usually are less than stellar.

Also, would you say it's possible to get Signature Item for stuff that has never been in your gear slots? I was pursing through the pages when it occurred to me that a Sister Militant would get her Power Armour only at Legatine rank if she doesn't get a bargain on it.

Hmm does these rules go in addition to starting gear? or can conscripts not maintain his guard flak armour before rank 3?

Apart from that it does seem like a nice system?

Graver said:

Agreed and this is a fairly comprehensive attempt to do something about the contemporary game mechanic, because book prices for gear and acolyte income simply dont match up, its almost like it was put in as an afterthought. Every book with gear in it seems to just be full of things which to be bluntly honest, no one in our group has a snowball's chance in hell of ever managing to afford!

It does in some ways emphasise the use of skills over brute dollar value, but for the most part they're heavily reliant on the inquisitor being generous when they they actually do something good for once, with that in mind I'm considering the level of threat they face be commensurate with the rewards, minor gets minoris rewards, major rewards for taking on majoris threats etc. It'll also take out some of the random arsehole factor turning up on the proverbial gaming doorstep with a multimelta that I dont really want to deal with right now at this level of play, if they are rewarded by the GM.

The only other system I could think of was perhaps introducing a Trait "Income" which people could buy at rank 2 and once for every rank after that for about 50-100xp which would increase their base income by 5-10%, but I dont think that will really encourage people to play scum as their income will still be complete rubbish so a flat rate might be in order.

The only other system I could think of was perhaps introducing a Trait "Income" which people could buy at rank 2 and once for every rank after that for about 50-100xp which would increase their base income by 5-10%, but I dont think that will really encourage people to play scum as their income will still be complete rubbish so a flat rate might be in order.

I disagree. Varying character wealth is among the defining traits of the careers and backgrounds - if a scum could be as wealthy as a noble, then what's the point in choosing the noble homeworld whose major selling point is the massive amount of cash you get?

Agreed and this is a fairly comprehensive attempt to do something about the contemporary game mechanic, because book prices for gear and acolyte income simply dont match up, its almost like it was put in as an afterthought. Every book with gear in it seems to just be full of things which to be bluntly honest, no one in our group has a snowball's chance in hell of ever managing to afford!

While generally correct, it is actually possible to afford at least a lot of stuff with a little tinkering - assuming you combine a techpriest and a noble in a group, the techpriest can get a "mega-contact" in the Adeptus Mechanicus (detailed below) and pay for the group's gear with the noble's income. Of course, that still assumes you have several months of down-time, but with two or three thousand thrones (that's about 3 to 5 months for a mid-ranking noble), you can already give your party quite nice equipment.

Adeptus Mechanicus contact:

-Contact is an Adeptus: 200 XP

-has miltary connections: 50 XP

-has Special Powers: 200 XP

-is an expert in a Skill (Medicae - unless we've got someone else to install augmetics in our techpriest): 20 XP

-can reduce all Availability*3: 150 XP

-is able to reduce all prices*3: 300 XP

-offers favours: 150 XP

-is trusted: 100 XP

= 1170 XP, or 585 using the "I used to know someone" rule for the Techpriest

Minor threadjack, and apologies for it: What's the "I used to know someone" rule? Where is it found?

IH (Black Industries edition) page 221 in the black box: Taking connections that are especially fitting for your character because of his career, his home world or other background should cost only half the normal XP. Since the mention the Adeptus Arbites for arbitrators, the AdMech should be appropriate for techpriests...

Ahh, right. I knew the text, I just didn't connect it to the name (which is funny, since the title heading says just that). This falls into the "I'm sometimes stupid" pile. Thanks.

Thank you everyone for the input and, Aethel, I'm glad someone besides me and my group are getting some kind of use out of my rantings :-). All of you guys have brought up several things that haven't come up in game or that I haven't thought about (and two things I just forgot to include in the write up :-X ). As for what I forgot to mention...

First, on Starting Gear and Gear Slots.

A starting character receives any or all listed gear for their career. They do not have to take a piece of gear if they do not want to, but it is available to them. The starting gear is slotted as normal and any gear that the player wishes to keep but which wont fit into a slot is simply recorded as Fragile Gear. If they accept a piece of starting gear from their career, they must slot it if they can.

In addition to the starting gear, if a player has any slots left open after slotting all the starting gear that they can, they may chose any gear that would fit in that slot as long as the gear's availability is Average or higher. If they want a piece of gear that is Scarce, Rare or Very Rare, then they must make a pass/fail Inquiry test with a difficulty determined by the population size equal to the place where they spent most of their pre-game life. If they succeed, they may take the item. If they fail, they were unable to locate the item before the game begins.

On Modifying the Barter Test

There are two items included in the gear charts that I made specifically for this system. They are the Bag of Trinkets and Stack of Thrones.

The Bag of Trinkets is a collection of odd shinny baubles, semi-precious doo-dads, spare mechanical parts, or just about anything else a citizen might be willing to trade an item for. When used in a Barter test, the Bag of Trinkets adds a +10 to the test. If they are discarded for the test (indicative of the character handing over everything in the sack, bag, box, or carton), then they receive a +30 for that one test. If the character discards the Bag of Trinkets but dose not seal the deal and acquire the item, they will not lose the Bag of Trinkets. After all, the deal didn't go through.

The Stack of Thrones is the big brother to the Bag of Trinkets. It's a big ol' stack of honest to goodness cash, and a lot of it too. Having a Stack of Thrones to toss about gives the character a +30 to any Barter test they make with the Stack of Thrones. If they chose to discard the Stack of Thrones for a Barter test placing all the cash they have left on this one purchase, it will automatically reduce the items Rating by one level. The character can then chose to make a Barter test in addition to discarding the Thrones (without the +30 they would normally offer as they've already done all they can) in the hopes of reducing the items Rating by yet another level making it possible to reduce an items Rating by two levels.

Additional means of Acquiring an Item

On to some issues Cifer brought up. In regards to the Soritas and their power armour, that is something that I hand really thought about but upon looking into the matter, it did expose a bit of a problem, not only with them but with the Tech-Priests and Assassins as well as none of them get the Barter skill until close to the end of their career if at all. I've had some ideas bouncing around in my head on codifying alternate means of lowering an items rating and this was just the kick to get me to really sit down and hammer them out. These have yet to be tested in game but, theoretically, they should work just fine.

Scholastic Lore (bureaucracy)

When acquiring an item by requisitioning it from an organized and structured source that the character has a Peer talent with, the character can use Scholastic Lore (bureaucracy) [int] in lieu of Barter to reduce the items Rating. Doing such, however, can result in having to wait for the paperwork to be properly processed before the character can lay his or her hands upon it.

Using Scholastic Lore (bureaucracy) is, in most cases, a Challenging (+0) test. If the test succeeds, however, the character must wait for 1d10 - Int Bonus in days for the paperwork to be processed and filed properly before the item is available to them at the reduced Rating. If the test fails by less then 3 Degrees of Failure, they must wait 2d10 - Int Bonus in weeks before the Item is made available to them at it's discounted Rating. If the test fails by 3 degrees of more, then either their paperwork is being processed indefinitely (and they can't file a new request until the old has been completed) or they end up getting something entirely different from what they requested (such as a crazed murderous pigmy intent on poking them with a sharp stick... unless that's what they were trying to get in the first place). It should be noted that in such an incident, all records will indicate that the character received the requested item and any attempt to correct the matter will require that the character proves they do not have the item that the paperwork now says they do (a tall order to say the least).

Gambling

Gambling can be used in addition to Barter to acquire an item but at a greater risk. Doing such represents either the character claiming the item as winnings from a game of chance or the character purchasing the item with the help of winnings from previous gambles.

To do such, the character must wager either a Bag of Trinkets or Stack of Thrones and make an Average (+10) Gambling test. If it is successful, then the character retains what they wagered and the Rating of the item that they are trying to get will be reduced by one if a Bag of Trinkets was wagered or two if a Stack of Thrones was wagered. If the test fails, the character losses what they wagered and gains no benefit. If they fail the test by three or more degrees, then not only do they lose their wager, but they also make an enemy who's out for their blood, either to collect gambling debts that the character's wager couldn't cover or to avenge themselves on what they consider to be a cheater. Either way, the characters life will be a lot more interesting for a bit.

Once the gambling test is made, pass or fail, the character may then make a barter test as usual if they so desire.

Slight of Hand

Sometimes, a character simply wants to acquire an item through any means possible. Usually thievery would be handled in-game through normal role play and the occasional dice roll. Sometimes, however, the character wants to acquire an item through foul means during downtime or engage in petty theft that doesn't warrant actually playing through. In such instances, Slight of Hand can be used instead of Barter to reduce an items rating representing either the character gaining additional funds through pick pocketing and petty theft or the character actually cashing in their five finger discount for an item.

Using Slight of Hand to acquire an item is more risky then the strait and narrow legal methods and requires a Challenging (+0) Slight of Hand test. If the Slight of Hand test succeeds, then the items Rating is reduced by one as if the character had passed a barter test. If the test fails, the items rating is still reduced by one, but the characters misdeeds have been found out and someone will be after them. If the test is failed by three or more degrees, then not only can't the character get the item, but their misdeeds are found out and someone will be after them. Who this is and to what lengths they will go to get the character depends on the listed Rating of the item.

If the item had a rating of Minima, it may just be an irate shop owner. At Minoris, the local enforcers might become involved, though not with any real zeal. At Majoris, the enforcers would be taking the case fairly seriously and be working hard to catch the thief. At extremis, the character might find themselves pursued by kill squad troopers and find that a rather hefty bounty has been placed on their head. At terminus, they will find assassins coming after them, incredible bounties placed on their heads attracting bounty hunters from all over as well as the wrath and indignation of someone very wealthy and powerful leveled at the character.

Performer (any) or Trade (any)

The oldest method of acquiring goods and services is simple old-fashioned work. In Lieu Barter, a character can chose to use any Trade or Performance skill to lower the Rating of an item, representing them trading either their skills or funds they have just raised with such a skill for the item. However, doing such takes time and energy.

When using a Trade or Performance skill, the character must pass a Challenging (+0) test. If they succeed by three or more degrees, the items rating is lowered and they may acquire it (if possible) immediately. If they pass by less then three degrees, then they must work for a full day before they acquire the item and gain 1 fatigue point. If they fail, then they must work for a weeks time before they can receive the discount on the item and gain 2 fatigue points. If they are incapable of working through the full week for any reason, the items rating will not be lowered but they will still gain the 2 fatigue points. If the test fails by three or more degrees, then not only will the items rating remain unchanged, but the character will still gain 2 fatigue points when play resumes and lose a week to fruitless work. The character can not voluntarily pull out of the week of fruitless work. Only exterior events in the story will halt the characters work though they will still gain the 2 fatigue points.

With the new methods of lowering an items rating, an Adaptus Soritas character can now spend some time proving her faith by illuminating manuscript (trade [copyist]) praising the emperor (performance [singer]), or any number of other activities that would fall in line with proving themselves worthy of the armour without resorting to using Barter. This will reduce the Power Armour from Terminus to Extremis and make it available to them at Rank 6.

Since the Soritas are something of a special case in a lot of ways, another consideration must be taken with them. As all other organizations have a Peer talent that corresponds in some way to that organization, and the Career that corresponds to that organization offers the Peer talent for it around rank 2 or 3, the Peer talent was a good way of representing someone belonging to an organization and, as such, having an easier time getting items that members of said organization should have. That's why going to a group for whom you have a Peer talent with will reduce the items Rating and increase it's availability. There, however, is no Peer (Adaptus Soritas).

While there is no Peer (Adaptus Soritas), all sisters get a Peer talent opened to them at Rank 4. This is either Peer (military) or Peer (Ecclesearchy). Since the Adaptus Soritas is the militant arm of the Ecclesearchy, then an AS character (and only an AS character) can use either Peer (military) or Peer (Ecclesearchy) to get gear from their order or convent. Doing such will not only increase the availability of the Power Armour, Rare as opposed to Very Rare (having Common Lore [Ecclessearchy] will further increase the availability of the armour to Scarce), but also decrease it's Rating by one step, reducing the Power Armour from Terminus to Extremis.

With that said, if the Sister also puts in the work and makes a Trade or Performance test, the Armour can go from Extremis to Majoris, making it available to Rank 4+.

So, dose that work for you?

The new methods of reducing an items Rating should also be of immense benefit to the Tech-Priest seeing as how they only get Bargain around Rank 6 but have enough Trade skills to choke a horse.

Their inability to find equipment (read piss-poor Inquiry) I'm not willing to change. This system already makes finding items through Inquiry easier then it is presented in the RAW. By RAW, when hunting an item, if you fail, it's just not there and you'll never find it there. By this system (which subscribes to the theory involving some monkeys, some typewriters, a room, and Shakespeare) if the Inquiry test fails, it simply means that it is going to take the character even longer to locate the item, but given enough patience, they will find it if it is at all even remotely possible that the item could be in the area they are searching at some point in time. I've also allowed certain Lore skills, those relating to an organization of body of people, as well as Peer talents to further raise the Availability of an item.

So, a Tech-Priest with the standard Inquiry (that is, no Inquiry skill and a Fel of 20) of 10 but who also has Peer (Adaptus Mechanicus) and Forbidden Lore (Adaptus Mechanicus) will find that when they go to other Adaptus Mechanicus facilities to hunt of items, they will have a 20% chance of success (10+10 for dealing with a group for whom you have a Peer talent) and the items Availability will be increased by two steps. So, if the above Tech-Priest were hunting through a research station of 1000 souls for a Shock Blaster (Extremis/*Rare), the item would effectively be (Majoris [peer talent]/Average). The Inquiry test would be made at 10 (1/2 Fel) + 10 (Peer) +10 (Dif of finding Average availability in pop of less then 10,000 is Average [+10]) for a total of 30. Not that great of odds, but a failure will only make the hunt take weeks as opposed to hours. If he really needs the item in a hurry, he might be better off getting a scummer to hunt it up for him... they seem to be good at that.

* assumes the GM didn't alter the Availability based on location searched and other factors.

However, your idea to have a talent or two to represent a gizmoteer is a GREAT one! I would love to see what kinds of talents you can come up with, but here's my quick stab at one:

New Talent

Packrat
The character habitually collects just about anything they can get their hands on saving odd bits and things for a rainy day -after all, you never know when something will come in handy. At any given time, the character can have all forms of small odd items stowed about their person, in their many bulging bags, hanging from their back, or hidden in their volumus robes. With a bit of luck and forethought, the character seems to have items to cover just about any eventuality.

The character with this talent gets a number of free items equal to one half their Intelligence Bonus (round up), plus one if they have the talent Foresight. The items can only be chosen from the Tools, Surveillance, Protective Gear, Pharmasuiticals, and Mystical gear categories and they can only have a listed Rating of Minima or Minoris. The items selected must also have an Availability listing no rarer then Scarce and can be no larger then the Dark Heresy rule book. Once chosen, the gear is considered Fragile gear and, if still in the characters possession at the end of the game session, will be removed from his Fragile Gear at that time. The items are only chosen when they are needed and the choices refresh at the start of every game session.

• Example: Psam the Psychotic Scum is a Packrat with an Intelligence of 32. Each session Psam may chose to have up to two pieces of gear when needed during the session. At the start of a nights session, Psams choices about what pieces of gear he has tucked away for use in his many hidden pockets is completely open (as long as they come from the allowed gear categories and availability). At the start of the session, he doesn't make any choices, preferring to see how things play out before deciding what he can pull from his pockets. Thirty minutes into the session, the group finds themselves in a tough jam. They have been captured and hastily manacled by a group of heretics posing as Magistratum officers. Psam then decides that hidden in his pockets is a Multikey. With it, he is able to open the manacles and now has one undefined item left. As the group is running from the Magistratum traitors that have given chase to them, they suddenly come to a dead end in the form of a 100m drop to the stony ground below. Psam's player then decides that Psam's second item that he has squirreled away is a Climbing Rig. He pulls it out, anchors it, and zips away leaving his comrades to face the Magistratum alone -he is a real scum after all. When the next session comes, Psam's player will once again be able to chose two items that Psam has hidden on his person when a situation arises that requires their use.

Cost: 300 (too high? Too low?)

Sounds pretty good to me. I especially like the Bureaucracy Lore...

The talent reminds me of more narrative systems and Film Noir, where an item may be introduced by the classical voiceover "Luckily, despite planning to quit smoking for the seventeenth time, I had taken the cigarettes and the lighter with me when I went to work today...". Thus, I like it. One might think about making it work only on a roll (probably int), with failed results not being able to produce the stuff they'd need in the situation, but simply limiting the number of times they're able to invoke it sounds alright too.

A fine bunch of rules and ideas, but I don't buy into it. Why should every character be limited to how much they can own by level? What if my characters locate and break into a slavers compound during a major sale (which they have done) and get away with all the cash? Should I then tell them that they can't purchase they items they want because their level doesn't allow it? How is this anything but an artibrary ruling?

Players can come up with many ways to make money and spend it just as quickly, unless you are feeling particularly miserly, why is this mechanic needed? Now, I could get behind the idea that this is the limit of what they can aquisition from their Inquisitor's cache at any one time - the ammount they have access to directly reflected by their success up to date - but to place a limit on items one can own based upon level, that feels too much like a "game" rule than a "realism" rule to me.

I may well use this rule to track how much the inquisitor is willing to part with for a mission, but would never use it as an overall rule for the system.

A fine bunch of rules and ideas, but I don't buy into it. Why should every character be limited to how much they can own by level? What if my characters locate and break into a slavers compound during a major sale (which they have done) and get away with all the cash? Should I then tell them that they can't purchase they items they want because their level doesn't allow it? How is this anything but an artibrary ruling?

Let me say it this way: Why can a character with 400 XP purchase at most four skills? What do I tell my players when they want to learn more?

Everything in an RPG is an arbitrary ruling, for everything could be ruled otherwise.

And as you may have read in the original post, yes, the characters can take everything - but it will come under the 'fragile gear' heading, to be somewhen destroyed by stray bolt rounds, lost on your travels, stolen, exchanged for other stuff or something else. The gear slots are for more permanent items.

While this is a well-done system, I've never been a big fan of the Wealth mechanic from D20 Modern, which this is a variation on. Personally, I've always preferred monetary systems, simply because that's actually how it's being handled in-game. I also hate "fragile items" systems - as a player, I hate the idea that something I may have worked really hard in character to gain illegitimately is guaranteed to be taken away from me within one or two games because nobody my level should have such a thing ("Then how did I get it in the first place?"). From the GM's perspective, "fragile items" are counterproductive because by instituting that rule, I'm disallowing myself from taking away gear that I really should be taking away rather regularly (a PC's specialty weapon, armor, important components, toolkits, etc.).

That said, some people do like systems such as these, and it's largely a matter of personal preference which is "better". This is, after all, a "House Rules" forum. The RAW isn't changing because somebody posts on here, so the random "this idea is horrible" posts are unneeded.

Pneumonica, you seem to have a bit of nasty internal conflict going on there. On the one hand, as a player, you want stuff that won't be taken away but as a GM you want to take that stuff away. You might need to get that worked out before it causes some catastrophic rift in your personality causing your alter ego to seize control of your body while you sleep and go on murderous player killer rampages leaving you with no memory of the former night, blood caked under your fingernails, and the police pounding on your front door. Not a good situation to be in my friend ;-p

*Edit: oh, and thanks for the kind words... but seriously, get help before it's too late!*

And Cifer, glad you approve of the latest draft.

Either way, yes, this system is most definitely not everyone's cup of tea, but then neither is the monetary system. It goes without saying that everyone has different tastes ;-) After a bit of playing, I simply felt that a strictly monetary system didn't match my perceptions of what the mood and focus of Dark heresy should be. It placed too much emphasis on gaining and spending money and on the acquisition and hoarding of material goods which, in a lot of settings, is fine, but in 40k, it doesn't quite gel with me. It was a bit to adventerist feeling and I wanted to avoid the loot mentality for more money/better gear that such systems tend to generate in players.

This system, on first look, dose look like it would limit what a character can own, but the opposite is actually true. With this system, there is no limit to what a character can own. Beyond simply being able to amass a massive pile of Fragile Gear, a character can, given appropriate down time, kit themselves up for any mission that they might be involved with switching one piece of gear out for something better suited to the job on hand.

In a strictly monitory system, the players get too caught up with what they have invested in their gear. They will try all manner of things to get more money but are usually loath to sell off or ditch their own gear unless it's to get a bigger better replacement to the thing being sold off. Under this system, the characters can simply swap out gear they don't see themselves as needing all that much in their current mission for gear that they will be needing without worrying about loosing any hard earned money or investments. Are they fixing to sneak into a cult stronghold for a bit of recon? Well, they'll be hitting the streets and their various contacts first of all ditching heavy armours, gas masks, and shotguns for camoline cloaks, stummers, silencers, and multikeys. When that mission is done, they may go out and exchange the stealth items for their old gear, or might opt to see if they can find power armour this time as they know they'll be working to purge the heretic nest they had just finished exploring. I think this system better emphasis's getting the best tools for the job on hand as opposed to hoarding the best things that the characters have been able to get their hands on to date, never mind if it won't help them out in the current mission.

My players were a bit unsure of this system at first, but when they found out that they could get pretty much anything (as long as they can find it) without having to save for two lifetimes, they perked up. One is now looking for a servo-skull. Under the strictly monitory system, she would have had to save her thrones and loot the dead for the duration of the campaign to even consider affording one and then she would have to do such at the detriment of ammo for her weapons, weapon upgrades, specialty items to make certain missions a bit more doable, etc -something she would ever have done. Under mine, all she has to do is find one that she can get as she already has a slot with it's name on it.

Granted, I could just give the players what ever they wanted or not depending on my whims, but I felt that some kind of system was needed to help regulate our whims and the monetary system just wasn't it.

With that said, this system is definitely not for everyone. Heck, those that may like it are, more then likely, in the extreme minority. As long as one other liked it enough to use it or saw some tidbit that they hadn't thought of that can help their game, then posting these rules was well worth it. I really don't care if someone doesn't like them or feels that the rules are not for their game -chances are, these rules aren't for most games. The only thing I care about in regards to this thread is good constructive feedback on how to make the rules more inline with what they are supposed to do or eliminate any holes. Such is help always greatly appreciated. :-D

Pneumonica, you seem to have a bit of nasty internal conflict going on there. On the one hand, as a player, you want stuff that won't be taken away but as a GM you want to take that stuff away. You might need to get that worked out before it causes some catastrophic rift in your personality causing your alter ego to seize control of your body while you sleep and go on murderous player killer rampages leaving you with no memory of the former night, blood caked under your fingernails, and the police pounding on your front door. Not a good situation to be in my friend ;-p

And Cifer, glad you approve of the latest draft.

Either way, yes, this system is most definitely not everyone's cup of tea, but then neither is the monetary system. It goes without saying that everyone has different tastes ;-) After a bit of playing, I simply felt that a strictly monetary system didn't match my perceptions of what the mood and focus of Dark heresy should be. It placed too much emphasis on gaining and spending money and on the acquisition and hoarding of material goods which, in a lot of settings, is fine, but in 40k, it doesn't quite gel with me. It was a bit to adventerist feeling and I wanted to avoid the loot mentality for more money/better gear that such systems tend to generate in players.

This system, on first look, dose look like it would limit what a character can own, but the opposite is actually true. With this system, there is no limit to what a character can own. Beyond simply being able to amass a massive pile of Fragile Gear, a character can, given appropriate down time, kit themselves up for any mission that they might be involved with switching one piece of gear out for something better suited to the job on hand.

In a strictly monitory system, the players get too caught up with what they have invested in their gear. They will try all manner of things to get more money but are usually loath to sell off or ditch their own gear unless it's to get a bigger better replacement to the thing being sold off. Under this system, the characters can simply swap out gear they don't see themselves as needing all that much in their current mission for gear that they will be needing without worrying about loosing any hard earned money or investments. Are they fixing to sneak into a cult stronghold for a bit of recon? Well, they'll be hitting the streets and their various contacts first of all ditching heavy armours, gas masks, and shotguns for camoline cloaks, stummers, silencers, and multikeys. When that mission is done, they may go out and exchange the stealth items for their old gear, or might opt to see if they can find power armour this time as they know they'll be working to purge the heretic nest they had just finished exploring. I think this system better emphasis's getting the best tools for the job on hand as opposed to hoarding the best things that the characters have been able to get their hands on to date, never mind if it won't help them out in the current mission.

My players were a bit unsure of this system at first, but when they found out that they could get pretty much anything (as long as they can find it) without having to save for two lifetimes, they perked up. One is now looking for a servo-skull. Under the strictly monitory system, she would have had to save her thrones and loot the dead for the duration of the campaign to even consider affording one and then she would have to do such at the detriment of ammo for her weapons, weapon upgrades, specialty items to make certain missions a bit more doable, etc -something she would ever have done. Under mine, all she has to do is find one that she can get as she already has a slot with it's name on it.

Granted, I could just give the players what ever they wanted or not depending on my whims, but I felt that some kind of system was needed to help regulate our whims and the monetary system just wasn't it.

With that said, this system is definitely not for everyone. Heck, those that may like it are, more then likely, in the extreme minority. As long as one other liked it enough to use it or saw some tidbit that they hadn't thought of that can help their game, then posting these rules was well worth it. I really don't care if someone doesn't like them or feels that the rules are not for their game -chances are, these rules aren't for most games. The only thing I care about in regards to this thread is good constructive feedback on how to make the rules more inline with what they are supposed to do or eliminate any holes. Such is help always greatly appreciated. :-D

Actually, no conflict. Maybe I wasn't clear - if I've gained something special "above and beyond", if it's on my fragile items list it's guaranteed to disappear within a few games. It's not that as a player I don't want to lose my stuff (I don't, but that's part of the game), it's that as a player I don't want the GM whaling on the stuff I actually took time, energy, and effort to get as a special reward for extra work (which, yeah, includes looting the bodies).

Meanwhile, if I'm a GM, I look at my player's lists and I see that a character's specialist weapon isn't "fragile". Well, poot. I can take away the stuff they actually worked hard to acquire, but I can't take away this one item that he uses a lot, that his enemies would want gone from his hand (or at least gone from his person - if they take the hand as well that's just a bonus), etc., but I can't hurt it because it's not "fragile".

These two things are not incompatible, quite the opposite. As a player, if I specialize in something, I'm going to assume my enemies will try to get rid of the tools of my trade. But if I've spent a two-session scenario and in the process gained something rare and precious, it becomes valueless to me if I know the GM will be taking it away from me at his earliest convenience, which is what a "fragile items" list translates into. I don't mind risking the loss of something important or valuable, but I resent its certainty, and it, in turn, means I'm not going to work particularly hard to accumulate resources that might be helpful to me in the game. That, in turn, means I'm less invested in the game.

Pneumonica, I was just poking you as my first read through on what you had said did cause some amusing thoughts to run through my head ;-p

You do have a point about the Fragile Gear, but you also may be looking at it a bit too strictly. Just because something is Fragile Gear doesn't mean the GM has to find a way to remove it in game. However, if a situation should crop up that would result in the random or arbitrary loss of gear, then, if narrativly logical, it should come out of the Fragile Gear first. This doesn't exclude Slotted Gear if the situation demands it. Just if the GM has a choice of what to remove, he should steer to the Fragile gear first and slotted second.

Designating Fragile Gear and Slotted Gear is more a means of getting the player to assign importance to what their character has. If it is important to them, then they will try to slot it. If they can't due to a lack of slots, then it's obviously less important to them then the gear already slotted. In that situation, if the character were to encounter a situation where they arbitrarily lose some of their gear, losing their Fragile gear wouldn't be as devastating to them as losing their Slotted gear. For arbitrary situations or times of just bad luck, I usually don't like punishing the character all that much so they lose the gear that was, all in all, least important to them.

In the rare circumstances where they have a bit of gear as Fragile because it was of too high a rating to be slotted, well, those are just the breaks. They still have some control over what will be arbitrarily taken from them in situations they would normally have 0 control over.

Basically, if you spend two sessions getting something rare and precious, then protect it! One way to do this is to slot it ;-) But even if it is slotted, it can still be blasted into a million pieces, stolen, or half a zillion other things. However, if such were to happen, you can bet it wasn't for random arbitrary reasons... it's something personal. If the character just has a bit of bad luck, something needs to occur in the story to set the mood or theme, or other arbitrarily impersonal bad situation that the PC had no control over is to occur (a pick pocket because the streets are full of them, a fire to show how dangerous X town is, a theft to get the McGuffen but the thieves would also logically take more stuff, they are sinking like a stone and start dropping bags and belts as fast as they can to get back to the surface, etc) then the Fragile Gear should be picked on first if appropriate to the situation. If, however, the PC is suffering the repercussions of their actions, the enemy is looking to take something specific (specialist tools for instance), you want to give the PC a personal steak in matters, or anything else of a personal nature to the afflicted PC, then that's when you go for the slotted gear.

I'm sorry if that wasn't too clear in my write up and if this message and any other still isn't all that clear I am by far and wide not a very good writer.

Sounds like fragile gear is something more like, non automaticly reclaimable gear, and a consript with heavy bolter might not get all the ammo he wants/needs, and if he looses it he must gain a new one in game like looting it.

>>Let me say it this way: Why can a character with 400 XP purchase at most four skills? What do I tell my players when they want to learn more?<<

The difference there is a person can only learn so much, so quickly. I would love to get my graduate degree right now, but it is going to take me time (levels) to achieve this.

On the other hand, if I have earned the money to purchase something, then I can purchase it in most cases - unless it is somehow preposterously difficult to get. I don't like the "You can have this much at this level" mentality because it limits the GM and the fluid nature of a setting. Given, this isn't as bad as the DnD 3.crap edition were you are specifically limited to how many magic items, how much money, etc. you can have per level, but it still seems like a heavy handed mechanic for me. Like you said, not everyone's cup of tea.

As to Fragile items, another game I play - Dying Earth rpg - has something like this, where characters have X number of item "slots", which they may purchase with xp, to declair those items permanent possessions. (if lost or broken a replacement is found within a session or so) But that system encourages the gm to take away the players things, because it is appropriate to the types of stories told in the Dying Earth books. (well worth a read if you haven't had the good fortune)

I have nothing against the concept of Fragile items per se, though I think the prices or these items should be severely reduced if you intend to take them away in a session or two. (and, of course, the pcs need to be aware of this.) It is one thing if an item legitimately breaks or is lost during a mission, but if the odds are stacked that direction then some compensation must be in order. (I have a pc in one of my games who buys and breaks items every damned adventure - he bought an incredibly expensive specialty weapon and blew it up in the first use - but those are legitimate losses - and really bad luck - and he goes into each adventure expecting that.) If the players have vast ammounts of money it is not an issue, but if they don't ...

I see a item slot system as a blow to realism and adds more complexity. I think there is a place for the idea though. It could easily be used to represent what the characters can requisition from the inquisition. (an idea I may end up using)

It also takes out a fairly essentail roleplay and character development aspect of the game. Money (how they get it and spend it) is one of the aspects that determin character growth and power. It is also the only one really that is only limited by the players imagination and resourcefulness. How they go about it can be the source of endless adventure hooks and entertainment. Ripping that out makes little sense to me but I am not everyone and milage may vary.

@Graver: Okay, my bad. I've been faced with a few too many misunderstandings-per-day in that regard of late, so you kinda got the brunt of it. Mea culpa .

@Jack of Tears

The difference there is a person can only learn so much, so quickly. I would love to get my graduate degree right now, but it is going to take me time (levels) to achieve this.

You've fallen into the classic pseudo-realism trap there. XP are acquired for gaming sessions and surviving adventures, not learning. So unless your degree requires you to periodically clean out xeno critter nests, unravel conspiracies or hack heretics to pieces, you learn differently from a DH character. Indeed, a character may learn less with a year of downtime after taking out a small nest of heretics than with half a month after finally succeeding in preventing the Logician takeover of the sector.

Cifer said:

That maybe how you play the game, but personally I like my players to do things in game that actually reflect their learning. They can't get forbidden knowledge xenos if they've spent the whole game chatting up prostitutes in a brothel downhive.

What you are referring to is on the job training or an apprenticeship. Gaining skills/talents/stats that help with heretic cleansing makes total sense when that's what you've been doing.

Regardless of that, XP purchases things at a different rate to money. It is completely possible for someone to rob a bank and get 10 million dollars, whilst in the process only receiving 500 XP and thus only a couple of advances. So in the end the events produce two different amounts of spendable income, despite accruing them at the same time.

In this regard his argument makes perfect sense. Money is nowhere near as restricted as experience, whether ingame or in reality. It is far easier to rationalise getting 100 million dollars in an RPG than receiving 50,000 XP all at once to advance your character (although still possible depending on the setting).

Putting restrictions on money is far more abstract than putting it on XP, because no matter what you are doing at any given time you aren't going to learn 50 things all at once, but you CAN earn 50 million dollars all at once (honestly or otherwise). Yee gads, your average bumpkin giving his money to a stock broker could hypothetically end up with that, without learning ANYTHING (although probably not in this economy ).

I much prefer really money systems. I sometimes don't even bother with XP, just giving out advances when I deem the players to have earned them (like etiquette after hanging around a noble lady for a few weeks).

Hellebore