One of my players has recently raised the question of using Molten man in conjunction with Endure flames to keep his equipment intact. I think it is not (while the two are not mutually exclusive) really within the spirit of turning yourself into a raging inferno of firey death to have your equipment suddenly only warm up a bit, while everything around you takes energy damage, and anything slightly delicate or flammable either melts or bursts into flames.

I'd like to find a rules justification (as well as background), because I prefer that to simply invoking GM authority for the sake of balance. He has stated that it's not particularly unbalancing, but it still sits as something that should not be allowed to me -as Molten man is a fairly potent power.

So if there is a ruling I have missed, please point me towards it. If not, then what are your opinions on the matter?

I don't think there is a rule for this eventuality, but I for one would not allow Endure Flames to protect from Molten Man. When you read the Molten Man power description you see that one of its functions is the same as Endure Flames, so I think that has been taken into account. If he wants to manifest Molten Man and not lose all his stuff, tell him to jury rig his clothes and gear so at the pull of one cord it all falls off him, or at least separate clasps for his backpack and holster and such. This can probably not be extended to his armour or shoes though, so he might want to consider a couple pairs of cheap sandals. He should really just be happy that Molten Man doesn't hurt him as it does everything and everyone around him, like Holocaust, which has a PT of only 4 lower than Molten Man.

I'd have no problems with the combination - remember that he'll have to roll to sustain them and that with both of them sustained, rolls for further powers are at a +8 and rolls to sustain the powers are (probably - the rules are not exactly clear on this) at +4, likely without the benefit of Invocation.

Sure, futher power roll incur a penalty of 8, but why would you need to manifest anything else after those two? You are fiery death on legs with Molten Man. I'm more concerned about the balance between how powerful it is and how easy it would be to manifest it if you know you don't have to worry about your equipment, all you need worry about is 1d5 fatigue when you stop manifesting it, but since you can keep it going for 10 rounds without any additional rolls, I'm pretty sure the enemies are long dead before that. Then all you need to do is meditate or use Dull Pain to remove the fatigue (and if you can maifest Molten Man you've got a good shot at removing all fatigue at once). And again, I'd like to remind you to compare it to Holocaust: a PT of only 4 lower, you don't gain as much advantage from it, and you suffer 1d10+1 E damage from it each round you sustain it. The destruction of all your gear is quite critical to game balance, I feel.

You really think the power has no drawbacks just because your equipment stays intact? How about cooking off the ammo of your allies or igniting the entire locale? As long as the enemy can flee (which they may just do when encountering a creature consisting entirely of fire) or have enough range to stay outside of melee range and just pelt the psyker with their completely mundane autoguns, they're quite fine.

Also don't forget what power the psyker has to have when he can manifest it: Assuming a WP bonus of 5, that's a 10 with invocation. Taking averages, he'll need four psy dice to manifest it (27-10+4=21) - if he doesn't make it, he just wasted one and a half turns and may have created Phenomena. Considering the disadvantages to his allies, he'll likely spend this time away from them, which is not advisable when there are enemies around.

In regards to damage to allies and your surroundings, same goes for Holocaust and they still saw fit to make it so you cause damage to yourself.

As for phenomena, same goes for all psychic powers. Not a strong argument.

Then perhaps it is Holocaust that is too weak - also, you forgot the real bonus of Holocaust: It bypasses TB (including Unnatural Toughness, which is not exactly uncommon and which will make Molten Man rather useless), Armour, Daemonic status and fire immunity and it permanently kills daemons (and wielders of Halo devices) instead of sending them back to the warp, which may give some entities pause that would attack you otherwise.

The damage from Holocaust ignores the psykers armour and toughness as well, and while the attacks of Molten Man doesn't ignore those, it does give the psyker some really powerful advantages, such as immunity to fire and Flame weapons, halved damage from Melta and Plasma weapons, the trait The Stuff of Nightmares (which alone is very powerful), 3 more to your toughness bonus, a penetration of 5 to your unarmed attacks, which also counts as having the power field trait, and you want to make it more powerful? Holocaust causes 1d10 E damage per point of your willpower bonus, and only 1d10+1 to yourself, probably a big difference when you can manifest a power with a PT of 23, and is thus not a major drawback, but compare that with only 1d5 fatigue for everything you gain from Molten Man, then 1d10+1 damage is nothing. Finally if a simple minor power could be used to prevent the the thing that most deters psykers from using Molten Man, why would anyone try and use it not in conjuction with Endure Flames? I would think that the creators would have thought of a new drawback instead if the current one could so easily be avoided.

Oh, and did you consider the irony of the fact that you said that perhaps Holocaust is too weak, and then proceded to talk about how it has enough power to permanently kill a daemon? =)

Just as an aside, might I suggest nobody uses Molten Man in a spaceship? I mean, do you realize how embarrassing it is (and fatal) to melt through the exterior hull? I mean, even in a hive city you might melt through a level or two before you are able to stop the burning.

Flame on !

Oh, and did you consider the irony of the fact that you said that perhaps Holocaust is too weak, and then proceded to talk about how it has enough power to permanently kill a daemon? =)

I did. However, you are the one saying that there is such a huge difference between the two powers in the first place. Also, are you seriously suggesting that killing everything in a 6 meter radius (again assuming the 5 points of WP bonus, it makes for 5D10 non-resistable damage) within one turn is not at least equivalent to Molten Man?

The attacking power of Molten man is not quite equivalent to a power sword (1D10+SB Pen 5 Power field and 1D5 area damage vs 1D10+5+ SB Pen 6 Power Field ). It's halfway regularly accessible around Psy level 4, meaning you need to be fifth or sixth rank, which is about the same time other careers get equally deadly weaponry.

Just as an aside, might I suggest nobody uses Molten Man in a spaceship? I mean, do you realize how embarrassing it is (and fatal) to melt through the exterior hull? I mean, even in a hive city you might melt through a level or two before you are able to stop the burning.

While there are quite real dangers to using it on a space ship, melting through the hull is not one of them, unless you mean to suggest that anti-ship-weaponry deals less damage than 1D10+5...

Dude, I was being funny.

I wasn't quite sure about it since the same argument is regularly used as the reason why only light weaponry (generally shotguns) is ever used against boarders.

Holocaust is a pure damage dealing power, Molten Man offers great resistance to certain types of damage (fire, melta, plasma), an overall better resistance to damage of any type (+3 TB), immunity to various harmful effects (poison, disease, suffocation, blood loss, stunning, critical damage effects other than outright death, unless said effects comes from psychic powers, force weapons or holy attacks), and a 75% chance to destroy your enemy's (melee) weapons if they hit you (power field trait). Molten man is more a defensive power, you shouldn't compare them solely on their damage dealing capabilities.

Oh, and Pneumonica, appreciate the effort to lighten the serious mood in here. =)

Flame on !

Pneumonica said:

Which begs the question, by using Molten Man, would you be able to increase the temperature around you enough to fly? Also would saying the words "Flame On!" just before using the power count as a successful invocation test?

from france

personally i would admit it for a simple reason hulk never loose his underwear while transforming. so for decency sake yes. just kiding. oh what happens if the psychic phenomena is cold air ? to we have a cold fire? in this case the psycker should be alow to keep his underwear

I suppose you could try and find a tech adept to help you fashion some sort of psycho-active bodysuit that could somehow absorb the powers of the user allowing it to remain unafftected by things like motlen man.

But if he's done any sweating in the past ten minutes, he won't be able to move around in it. lol

That's why the Great God-Emperor in His infinite wisdom gave mankind Talcum Powder!