ok so for some reason the search forums wasn't even recognizing "jump packs" so heres my question.

WHAT I KNOW:

~I have an agility of 50 so thats a +5 bonus.

~my movements are normally 7,14,21,42 respectively

~I also have a jump pack

~as a assault marine I have wing of angels

~with my bionic heart i have the sprint talent

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW:

what is factored first?

can anyone give my a simple rundown of what speeds i can go? I was somehow ending up in the hundred meters and knew i needed help.

I was going

NORMAL: 7/14/21/42

JUMP PACK: 14/28/42/84 *(requiring a pilot +0 test)

WING OF ANGELS: 34/48/62/104 *(requiring another pilot +0 test) ~This is where i figured that i had gone wrong.

SPRINT: ???? does this go ealier? can you even combine all of these?

thanks in advance

Agility 50 giving you a half move of 7? How'd you figure that?

Its Agility Bonus (5) plus 1 for being Hulking. And that is all.

Total Agility Bonus for the purposes of movement: 6 (not 7).

Jump Pack:
For the love of the Emperor, read the frakking pilot skill entry. You DO NOT require a piloting test every time you use the jump pack. Moevement in normal conditions does not warrant a pilot test. This means half move, full move, charging, and even running with your jump pack require no tests. If attempting something dangerous, such as landing on a small ledge or flying through openings with less than half a meter of clearence, or difficult, such as trying to stay airborne in a hurricane or with an enemy tagging onto on your legs, then tests are warranted.

Jump Packs simply double your movement rate, but only when you use the jump pack. Just because you are wearing a jump pack does not mean you can run double your movement. Remember, you can't use a Jump Pack all the time: kind of hard to jump pack in a normal hallway, you don't have enough clearance above you.

Wings of Angels adds another 20 meters to your move with a piloting test. Remember the rules for piloting tests in Rites of Battle: Modifiers stack. Trying to get 20 more meters out of your jump pack (+0) is going to be a lot harder when in gale force winds (-30).

Sprint DOES NOT WORK with Jump Packs. Flailing your legs around really really fast when 15 feet in the air is not going to make you go any faster. Your bionic heart can not make your Jump Pack thrust any harder than normal. The only thing that will improve your speed with the jump pack is anything which increases your character's base Agility Bonus. Any other movement modifying special rules or abilities only affects your characters own two legs.

I forgot to mention that i have corvus armor which gives me +10 to my agility so thats where the 7 comes from. (5+1 from hulking +1 from the armor=7)

the reason why I assumed that you have to make a pilot test everytime is because of what the description of jump packs says-- " a jump pack requires the pilot personal skill to operate effectively ". I see where i was wrong. I took it as you need to make a test everytime but it just is mentioning that its good to have the skill for when you try to do it in gale force winds ect.

so to clarify my movements are: 7/14/21/42 normally

14/28/42/84 if i use the jump pack

34/48/62/104 with wing of angels (requiring a piloting skill test)

or 7/21/21/84 while using sprint for a turn am i correct?

1tu3fore said:

Looks correct to me. Except sprint doesn't do anything for half-move or charging. Using sprint in either of those situations would simply be wasteful.

The need for pilot (personal) is not just for difficult tests, its also the training for your character to actually know how to use the jump pack. If you don't have the pilot (personal) you can't use a jump pack at all. If you do have the skill, you can use the jump pack, but normal mundane moevement doesn't require a skill check.

herichimo said:

Actually, and just because i remember and it's oft overlooked. 'When taking a Full Move Action, the character can move an extra number of metres equal to his Agility Bonus.' DW P126.

So a jump pack doubles the battle-brother's move (and is thus directly dependent on his ability to move fast) but the effects of Sprint (which further enhances the battle-brother's ability to move fast) doesn't apply? Anyone else noticing something off here?

-K

Face Eater said:

Exactly, as I said, "sprint doesn't do anything for half-move or charging …"

kjakan said:

Two completely different modes of movement.

A Jump Pack doubles movement when you use the jump pack to fly through the air.

Moving your legs really really fast with sprint increases your movement when you are running on the ground. For emphasis try this: Next time you are at the gym lift your legs off the ground then start running in mid-air, come back and tell us how far you get.

Flying through the air uses the jump pack's own Flyer (12) Trait. The doubling of your movement rate on the ground is short pack-assisted jumps.

herichimo said:

Despite herichimo's sometimes gruff demeanor, I'm in agreement here- it seems the two abilities are simply two different ways to get a movement bonus. One happens to be an item, the other happens to be a talent. It doesn't feel to me like they should stack together. Even though the jump pack doubles your base move (which is how fast you run on two legs) it still doesn't feel like the abilities should compound each other.

herichimo said:

You've completely failed to convince me. Your argument works for any fixed-rate movement granted by the Jump Pack, however where the Jump Pack is used to enhance the character's movement rate, the improved speed from the talent must surely apply.

-K

kjakan said:

Then look at it this way. When running your feet are always on the ground. When using the jump pack, even if for bounding jumps, your feet are on the ground only a few times in your entire move rate. Its not logical (and don't give me the "its a game logi- blah blah blah" argument) for a talent used when running would work with a jump pack.

If you still don't believe me, I'd be more than happy to send a rules query to Tim. I'm absolutely certain he'd rule against your desire. It may take a while though, when I spoke to him at Gamesday, Tim told me he was a little busy with another project and rules queries were put on the back-burner, but how about it?

herichimo said:

From the context I can only assume that Tim is some sort of rules authority figure, likely associated with FF games in an official capacity. Your use of the informal suggests that either Tim is an easy-going fellow that prefers that the internet community at large refer to him by his first name, or you hope some of his authority will rub off on and reinforce your position. Or both.

Still: The jump pack will double the character's Run move from 60 to 120 regardless of wether the character's Run move of 60 is derived from him having an effective AB of 9 (add 1 for power armour), or an effective AB of 4 (add 1 for power armour) and with the Sprint talent.

-K

kjakan said:

Tim is the FFG person who answers your e-mailed rules questions. Anyone who would have used the rules question option would likely know this. It can't be helped if you prefer to stick to your guns instead of finding out what the game designers actually intended.

Still: Don't believe this guy. He's just power-gaming and munchkining, and thats not a very fun way to play RPGs. We will let Designer's intent and common sense prevail in this instance: I've sent the rules fellows an official query. I will post it here when it comes back.

herichimo said:

I don't think it's fair to call Tim a power-gaming munchkin. He's just doing his job. Oh, wait: My mistake. It seems to be me you are insulting.

While we are waiting for that reply of yours on I would be keen to hear how these two are different:

1. A Battle Brother with Full Move 10 and Sprint that can move 60 meters with a Run Move action.
2. A Battle Brother with Full Move 20 that can move 60 meters with a Run Move action.

-K

Glad you caught that kjak, for a second there I was beginning to think you had a learning disability.

Here you go everyone:

"The movement bonus from sprint only applies when the Battle-Brother is moving on his own two feet. It would not, for instance increase his movement while piloting a jump pack or space marine bike. It also does not apply to his climbing speed or his speed while swimming.
Thank you for your question,
Tim"

Rule Question:
Hello,
This question concerns movement talents and wargear.
Does the Sprint talent stack with a Jump Pack for movement.
i.e. Can an Agility Bonus 5 character with a normal run speed of 30m and jump pack speed of 60m get a jump pack + sprint run speed of 120m? (Doubling movement speed with jump pack then doubling run speed again with sprint.)
Or does sprint only function when the character is running with his own two feet?

Tim didn't actually answer your question: "Piloting a Jump Pack" is what you do when you are using it to gain the Flyer trait.

-K

I think I know what kjakan is talking about here.

the argument i believe he is stating is that a character who uses a jump pack in his turn is intermixing running with short little boosts from his pack and in that argument the sprint trait could/should have some effect.

my reasoning on this is due to the what the jump pack does.

it states that you double your move. so if it didn't double your run why would it say that? why would it state that your half/full/charge/run are all doubled but not sprint? all of the first four imply that your character was using his momentum plus the jump pack to double his movement. e.g. your character moves forward x spaces and uses that momentum to move x more with the pack. if the pack wasn't implying you use momentum it would just have a flat rate of movement regardless of your own personal speed. therefore not doubling your speed but just making everyone with a jump pack move the exact same. its not like using the sprint talent uses any more time per round than a full/run action.

again thank you for the discussion. i have found it very enlightening.

p.s. just cause you dissagree doesn't mean you should be hating on each other.

1tu3fore said:

Simply because Sprint is NOT a movement action. It is a talent which modifies the Run Movement Action.

Second, the ruling is, "The movement bonus from sprint only applies when the Battle-Brother is moving on his own two feet."
Not, "Sprint does not increase a jump pack's Flyer (12) movement."

kjakan said:

Yes it does. Please desist from ignoring rulings which disagree with your personal wishes.

"Piloting a jump pack" if you want to get technical, is what you are doing whenever you are using a jump pack in any mode.

1tu3fore said:

Yup. It seems that we are on the same page.

herichimo said:

Maybe I will, but I'll need to see an actual ruling first. If you bother reading Tim's answer instead of clutching it close to your heart to feel the comforting warmth of an irrelevant message phrased in the affirmative, you'd perhaps realise that.

"Piloting" a Jump Pack without flying is like "driving" a bike without moving.

-K

kjakan said:

Yet it still recquires bike riding knowledge to keep from falling over on a bike even if it isn't moving, strange.

About taking tests: Munchkining aside, in in-universe terms, it would take concentration and training to be able to make a jump with a jump pack with any reasonable amount of precision, and not just plummet to the earth on the flat of your back/top of your head, brain yourself on high roofs, land wrong and go tumbling, break an ankle, etc.

Now skipping across a 6 foot gap, whatever. Free move, GM's discretion. Walking around with a jump pack mounted to you is called, well, walking. But a combat jump requires much, much more involvement, and when you're 1,500 pounds of dead weight, you REALLY need to get the jump right on the initial trajectory, because those things don't seem like they're real subtle.

About adding it as a multiplier to Sprinting: No, you can't just fire your pack horizontally, move your feet really fast, and claim it's sprinting. You are in this case still using your Jump Pack, which is a giant, toggleable rocket and not a personal afterburner for your natural ability to run.

Captain Ventris' Science Corner: Tie yourself to the front of a car with your legs free and feet touching the ground. Now, ask a trusted but nonetheless apathetic friend to slowly accelerate the car to 30 mph, and see how well you can keep your legs moving in a normal way at that speed. Optionally, you may make the six-million-dollar-man sound effect without impacting the results of the experiment. Before you go out and get yourself killed trying to prove someone on the internet wrong (pics or it didn't happen, just in case), here's a hypothesis: You will get your feet dragged pretty violently, and depending on how much of a sailor you are, you may or may not just get pulled under the car. S-S-S-S-S-S-SCIENCE

Now imagine that that acceleration was basically instant, and you were going quite a bit faster than 30mph. Your Marine is not doing the work, it's the pack, which is mounted above your shoulders, not on your feet. Rockets and running are not compatible forms of locomotion. This is why Wile E. Coyote gets rocket skates and not rocket boots, and if he didn't have so many roads, he would wipe out even more spectacularly than when he forgets to buy brakes the first time he passed over absolutely anything.