It seems to be agreed that the laser grenadiers need fixing. Yes, they are the **** in Dust Tactics; not so much in Warfare. And, they are dead ringers for the Red Skull's troops ("Hail Hydra!"), which makes them cool.

Here's my suggestion: Instead of giving the regular laser-werfer the 'laser' designation, simply double the amount of attack dice vs. troops. This makes them the dead shooty gits that they are in Tactics; you can rationalize it as lasers doing more damage more easily to mere flesh. The schwerer laser-werfer gets no changes; it's still real deadly against armor. The regular lasers retain their normal attack vs. armor, and also lose the 'laser' ability.

I'd be hesitant to change the Laser rule. When it works, it's fantastic. Instead, I think they need a range increase across the board for Laser weapons.

12" > 16"

16" > 20"

24" > 28"

By adding 4" to all Laser weapons, they would become a good harassment unit. They would be a more viable threat for your opponent to consider when moving into an area they control and they would stay on that slightly lower damage range which might not overbalance them.

Another option, not sure how this would balance out…..

All lasers have a line of sight range. If you can see it, you can shoot it. This would make smoke and limited visibility a major player. If you went this way you would have to remove the exploding hits rule.

Then change the Laser rule. Laser adds: When a unit with a Laser weapon fires on a Target within 6” it reverses the attack die result (Hit on Blanks).

This would make Laser units a constant threat that is deadly up close. It could over power them. It would need testing.

My 'fix' was based on the idea that lasers were, in Tactics, supposed to be able to put out a lot of fire (and damage armor where normal small arms couldn't). Thus doubling the attack dice vs. infantry. The 'laser' ability is too chancy, depending on the ability to get hits in the first place. As for their ranges, even in Tactics, lasers are shorter ranged than projectile guns…and FYI, lasers only have near infinite range in a vaccum; in atmosphere they attenuate like crazy, having to bull the air out of the way, losing energy with each millimeter.

Lasers work well in DT so why not just allow re-rolls of re-rolls, no need for any other mods or rule changes.

Warboss Krag said:

Yeah, that was the idea behind reversing the attack die within 6".

Reversing the attack dice doesn't give you as many potential hits as it used to in Tactics.

BTW, we are all resolved that they do need fixing, right?

I still like them. I'm in the minority of folks who play them, even handicapped as they are. But yeah, when compared to phasers, they need fixing. I like your idea WK.

But here's another thought…

Allies have rocket punches that hit on blanks. Why not lasers? But only vs infantry, and either no rerolls, or rerolls only hit on bullseyes.

I use them. They are good for annoying my opponent, until they get wiped out.

The laser weapons need something. Compared to the Allied Phasers, the Lasers are quaint first generation technology that the allies passed by and settled on producing 3rd gen phasers instead.

Here is another random idea….

Give Lasers the Spray symbol for all infantry units, with the Laser effect intact.

This could be represented as the user tracking the beam back and forth around the area the enemy squad is in.

It would certainly make them mean, but is it too much?

Edit:

Yeah, it would make them the premier anti-infantry squad. Oh well…..

The only problem I see with buffing lasers in warfare is that heavy laser grenadiers will end up being stupidly outrageously stupendously good. I mean they already melt down walkers in a single volley pretty much every single time I point them at a walker…. it would scare me if they were made better…. then they would be a one-shot killer of heavy walkers on an average roll for 35 points… shudder…

Personally, I would leave them alone…. laser grenadiers may be lackluster in warfare but they are still great in tactics and the models were made for tactics first before warfare even existed. You don't have to use them if you don't want to. If you love the look of them soo much that you have to absolutely have them in your list, then be like shadow4ce and bite the bullet and be imaginative to make them work for you…. Heavy laser grenadiers are fantastic in warfare and don't need any more advantages in any way… and I just don't like the idea of saying this laser gun has this rule but not that laser gun so if you beef up the laser grenadiers by improving the "laser" rule then you end up making the already awesome heavy laser grenadiers way too good… at that point, they might as well be called the super duper Winter Child laser studs and give them soldier 4 while you are at it… ok, I went overboard there, but they definitely don't need any help doing their job.

I'm also in the minority that they are fine. We've locally seen no issue with them and the points pretty much reflect what they can do.

I think they need a hero that gives them a buff of "spotter" , "agile", and 4 extra lives.

I use them and they work well enough. Better in Tactics but thats kind of niether here nor there when talking Warfare. But if the general consensus is that they need a boost I would keep it simple and not try to change any of the special rules (or anything of that nature that may effect other untis). Why not just change the stat line of the normal Laser–Gewehr to a 1/2 1/2 1/2 1/1 or 2/1 2/1 2/1 1/1 across the board for soldier targets? This would give them alittle more punch against infantry, no change vs. vehicles, and dosnt not alter the special rules of any other units (the heavys are fine as is). Another option would be to give them assault making it easier to close with the enemy to compensate somewhat the range issue. Like I said Im OK with them as is but if the rules are changed to give them a boost I would rather that not effect any other units and it keeps with the streamlined nature of the rules.

What other infantry units have a weapon that can even wound a I3 or I4 model? They also are good at wounding T2 and T3 as well. I see them getting used more as infantry and vehicle units with a higher armor value start to show up in warfare. They would be very effective against SSU copters that are flying low to drop off their payload. Down comes the chopper out comes the laser and pop!! No more chopper.

Actually I like Doom's idea of giving the Laser Grenadiers Assault. It would certainly make me more willing to move them.

And yes, the Heavy Lasers don't need any help.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Add Manfred to the squad and you are good to go.

thejughead said:

Unfortunately that would put them at one point more than the Heavy Lasers and takes a hero slot.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Sure, but with nine wounds and five lasers plus a Panzerfaust that needs no reload and Assault it's probably is worth the cost.

What I don't get is how Sigrid's Laser PISTOL does more damage against infantry than the Laser Grenadiers and Heavy Laser Grenadiers walking around with giant power packs on their backs. Explicame that, por favor.

I'd take anything at this point. The entire utility of lasers is based on a lucky string of one-third hit chances. If you're going to create a luck-based unit, why not maintain the "re-roll forever" mechanic from Tactics? The chance of having a string of lucky hits would make me actually consider them, rather than the expectation of two hits with the first roll, and maybe a third hit on the exploding mechanic. (Which all subsequently get absorbed through cover/armor saves after moving a unit within 12" range to use their crappy weapons.)

If they don't want to maintain the Tactics re-roll mechanic or bring the dice rolls up with Sigrid's rolls, what about ignoring cover? Fluff-wise, a laser weapon is going to demand pinpoint accuracy to hit. And if it's on target, it's on freaking target. Phasers get to ignore armor saves, so why not let lasers ignore cover saves?

Uff, my envy of the Allied army is strong. Freaking rocket punches and UGLs and phasers and walkers with an extra machine gun.

Duckshirt said:

Sigrid is a Hero… she gets prototype Uber weapons.

Duckshirt said:

I feel ya. Personally, I don't mind the exploding dice mechanic of Tactics for Lasers. It's countered by the short range, and in Warfare would be further tamed by Suppression.

Yes, the chances of getting hits on re-rolls is so slim that lasers are practically useless without the re-rolls that you get from a Sustained Attack action. That's why, in Warfare, I advocated dropping the 'laser' ability from the regular lasers (not the heavy ones; they remain as stated) and doubling their attack dice vs. infantry.

Um, as for 'pin point accuracy,' might I remind you that a bullet needs that too? Which is why grenade and splash weapons ignore cover: They aren't 'pin point' accurate, and don't need to be. (Although I would have had and splash only nerf one hit of cover: Hard cover is and remains notoriously difficult to winkle people out of with artillery).

Duckshirt said:

You are looking at it from the point of view of the weapon. Her stat line takes into account her skill, valor, and Heroine abilities.

Bah, we know it's all about the weapons It's why Lara's MG44 Zwei are the same as the HRG. It's why Action Jackson carries the same stat line for his 60W Phasers. They don't get extra dice to account for skill, valor and heroic abilities.

According to the Laser Pistole fluff it's a second generation model that uses cadmium batteries or some such technology. Perhaps that technology will find its way into an elite Axis counterpart for the British Commandos/French Foreign Legion. Or maybe they'll just give us three man teams that only get one weapon instead.

I swear, if that flyer has a laser on it I'm going to shoot it down myself.

I'm no longer listening to Warfare players that say lasers are useless anymore. I played a game last night as the axis, I built it specifically with lasers in mind, I have never in my 2 years of playing Tactics and now Warfareplayed axis (I have never played a game as any other than allies) and the list rocked. I did really well and the lasers were really decent. So I don't want to hear anymore if an axis rookie can make them work

And my list if anyone is wondering

Sturmpioniere w Manfred

Heavy Laser Grens

Laser Grens

Laser Grens

Battle Grens

Snipers

Wotan

Totenmeister

Axis Zombies x 4