Bones1968 said:

I'm not sure why you think that Computers and Astrogation are so closely related. Computers isn't the skill of 'anything you do sitting at a computer', it's the skill of programming and hacking computer systems. Astrogation is the skill of plotting a safe course through a complex, ever-shifting 3D space.

Charm and Negotiate may have similar *ends* in mind (kind of), but they utilize entirely different *methods* to get there.

Likewise, Cool and Leadership are totally different skills. Cool is about keeping your wits about you in a stressful situation. Leadership is about optimally delegating to and directing the actions of others.

Deceit and Skullduggery are, likewise, completely different problem domains. Deceit is about tricking people with words. Skullduggery covers a variety of physical actions.

Brawl and Melee each cover aspects of hand-to-hand combat, but are distinguished by whether or not the person is armed. Brawl covers unarmed combat such as boxing, wrestling, kung-fu, etc. Melee covers armed combat, such as with swords, axes, or spears (or lightsabers).

The split decided on for Pilot is touchy. I'd have preferred flying/ground rather than space/planet, but then where do you put boats and/or submarines?

Likewise, the split for Ranged combat is touchy, but they split it into light (pistols, etc.), heavy (rifles, etc), and gunnery (BFGs). Where does a sling fit in? A bow? A crossbow? An atlatl? (I'd argue light, heavy, heavy, and light respectively based on the hand-count needed to 'fire' each.)

It seems like many of the skills are split into passive/active pairs.

• Cool/Discipline - You have an innate ability (cool) to keep your wits about you. Beyond that, you rely on your training and conditioning (discipline) to keep from actually freaking out.
• Vigilance/Perception - You can, quite easily be oblivious when you're not paying attention, but be very keen when you are, or vice versus.
• Resilience/Athletics
• Etc.

Maybe it's just that the connotations I associate with the various skill names closely match the descriptions assigned to them by the developers, but I don't see much of the overlap that others seem to.

Voice said:

To me, Ranged (Light) is your one-handed ranged weapon skill, while Ranged (Heavy) Is two-handed weapons. Gunnery is for mounted weapons. With that in mind, I totally agree that a sling and atlatl are light, while a bow/crossbow is heavy.

-EF

Admittedly I just skimmed previous posts before posting. Errata or no Errata I am still sold on the game. But if it shall be tweaked this is the direction I would tweak it.
Playing Siths Advocate: I have had problems in the past with long skill list and games where experience points can either be used to gain non combat skill or to buff combat ability. Players who forgo buffing combat skills for non-combat skills feel cheated when those skill don't prove useful. Especially if they get beat up in combat. Trimming the skill list would mitigate but I would prefer stronger incentives to get players to build a diverse skill list.

Idea: Many other RPGs give you a bonus to several non-combat skills when you choose your race/species and class/career/specialization.
Idea: Talents like Stem application or Scathing Tirade give you something to do with skills in combat so the player can control when skills prove useful. Buffing these talents like these or adding others I think would be valuable.
Idea: Some have expressed concern that the cost of gaining a second or third specialization was too high. Perhaps players could gain bonus skills when they gained a specialization. That way characters would feel better about switching and end up with a more diverse skill set.

Bones1968 said:

I read through this whole thread, and looking at the skill list…

It was nice to see surveillance treated as a separate skill from simple stealth and perception. I don't see the skills presented as too narrow - in fact, the vehicular skills seem a bit broad. Surveillance being eliminated, I agree it's the one that's way-too-overlapped… but not with what skills replace it. Staying unnoticed in the crowd should be streetwise; knowing who you're looking at is a knowledge; using tools for remote observation would likely be computer, setting up a blind should be stealth.

The one large gap is languages - best solved in a manner not dissimilar to WEG's system…in which Languages is rolled to determine if you speak a given dialect, difficulty based upon how obscure the language is. It works well, adds but a single knowledge skill, and allows for "roll once only" mode for each language.

Skills are really putting me off wanting to run Beta. I like narrative games and this to me reminds me a lot of Savage Words, a system I really like.

I know this has probably been talked about to death but I need to know: Why is 4 in a Characteristic superior to a 3 in a Characteristic and a 2 training?

Here I am, trying to make a cunning character. A good spy, a good heist-man. I just mechanically compared 4 in Cunning/0 Skulduggery, 3 in Cunning 2 in Skulduggery. The first guy is very, well, cunning. But you don't have to be a criminal mastermind to be cunning or even have any inclination whatsoever to break the law.The Skulduggery skill is described as."Some people are never satisfied with an honest buck."

The first guy has zero trainning in the duggery of skuls. He shouldn't know how to pick pockets and jimmy locks, much less orchestrate jailbreaks and plan bank robberies! In this system, being trained at a level of 2 means you are a very highly experienced and trained person. That person might be a jail bird and jewelry thief extraordinaire for 5 or 10 years of his or her life.

But 4 Cunning/0 Training versus 3 Cunning/Extensive training and perhaps a decade or more of life experience,

Cunning 4 WINS.

Cunning 4/0 everything is mechanically more sound than 3 Cunning/2 in every Cunning skill. Somebody with zero training in lying versus a pathological liar and dirty politician for the past 10 years of his life…Cunning 4 wins. Somebody is a forward observer and scout for militias for 5 years of his life…He has less Perception than Cunning 4/0 Perception. A Rodian with RACIAL Survivial skill bonus because his race is the greatest in the core book at Survival and he furthermore receives training and is more cunning than the average Rodian…HE LOSES TO CUNNING 4/0. His racial schtick and wheelhouse of being a Survivalist is undermined by a politician with Cunning 4! A Bothan spy could potentially survive better on Rodia than a Rodian bounty hunter!

Edit: It costs too much to upgrade Characteristics so if you want a Streetwise, Skulduggery, Deceit, Survival guy…Bothan it up! Everybody else would have to pay 70 to go to 4 and you have to pay 40. Everything costs too much, but especially the Characteristics. This is why people say they are pigeonholed, by the way. 100-120 XP just stinks and then you are further railroaded into this little narrow avenues.

aramis, did you count the Triumphs there? The yellow die should have 20/24 S (and 24/24 A if you count Triumph as equivalent to 4 A.) That puts the expected average of 2 yellow and 1 green to… 2.292 S and 2.265 A. Heh, I guess I'd still rather have 4 green dice.

The 4th point of Cunning costs 40 XP, though, which is quite a bit. So if it's just about Skullduggery, then you'd be better off paying 30 XP for 3 ranks of Skullduggery, giving you 3 yellow dice for an average of 2.5 S and 3 A. Of course it's not just about Skullduggery, so I'd still rather have 4 green dice.

Does this mean yellow dice should be better? Or that skills should cost less? Or that characteristics should cost more?

I think one of the problems is that many skills are narrow and/or overlap with other skills. I believe Surveillance got scrapped for that reason. Some skills I'd like to see merged:

• Athletics and Coordination. The fact that several paragraphs were copy/pasted almost verbatim should have set off some warning bells.
• Ranged [Heavy] and Ranged [Light]. A pistol and a rifle are fairly similar in operation; point and click. It's the grenades that stand out here; maybe there should be a Ranged [Thrown] skill.
• Brawl and Melee.

There is little incentive to invest ranks in both sides of these pairs, so merging them wouldn't really give people "free" access to all that much that they'd be interested in anyway.

Xyx said: