I'm mostly happy with Skill list as it is at the moment, if anything it could be a bit shorter. Personally I find ideas like "let's have separate repair skills for things" hilarious especially in games like Star Wars. The system in EotE is supposed to be a narrative system and more importantly it's supposed to be robust but also easy and fast to run and play (that's how I see it, anyway). If I wanted all those skills I would play SW using BRP. I never did (and I like BRP), instead I used things like FATE, Over the Edge or (most frequently) Savage Worlds. That's because Luke can fly anything, Anakin could fix anything, Han will only have language problems when the plot demands it and Obi-Wan was a Jedi General bacause he was a leader, not a graduate of Republic Officer Academy of Strategy and Tactics (ROAST, couldn't help myself). I don't even mind the overlap, I always allow players some freedom in what skill they choose to use. If two of my EotE players wanted to achieve similar results using Charm and Negotiate or Streewise and Underworld, then by all means go for it as long as you explain/roleplay how you do that. The only danger is a skill becoming an uber-skill, but looking at this game's list I don't see that happening.

Just my two cents.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Just so that FFG have the full spectrum of opinions: In my 20 something years of running games I've always found the idea that GMs should have no pity for the players (for the sake of REALISM, no less) a bit sad and boring.

Wulfherr said:

Well said good sir.

Wulfherr said:

Well, I run with the attitude that If a player can justify it, they can do it. I encourage and allow for a huge range of creative thinking and I am very lenient and flexible. At the same time, my players understand that they have to justify what they are doing and that takes skills. If the party has been doing something consistently, I will give them free or reduced skill trainings. If a player tells me that he is going to do research on X over the course of 6 months, then I might give him a free knowledge skill in that specific area.

I'm not an Adversarial GM. I don't say no to be a jerk, I do it for a purpose. When I say no, my players understand why I said it.

On to something relevant….

I got my book and skimmed through the skills last night.

Resilience seems like an extraneous skill. It seems to be a fort save in the form of a skill. Resilience could easily be rolled into Survival and have it key off of Brawn instead of Cunning.

Skulduggery is the only skill that I remember that even mentions the idea of using other characteristics for certain aspects of the skill. This should be up front and center at the beginning of the skill chapter and applicable to almost all skills.

I noticed there are several skills that are almost identical in function, they just key off of different characteristics. These seem like ideal candidates to roll into one skill description, while allowing for them to use different characteristics.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I'm a fan of this approach as well. It seems to be more a relic of the system EotE is built on than an intentional design decision, and I'd be much more comfortable to just let any skill be used with any (applicable) ability.

Seems like an idea for an optional rule, though I would still limit that freedom to General Skills, while keeping Combat and Knowledge attached to characteristics (mainly to avoid Agility becoming the one stat to rule them all).

I think there is some points where skills could be combined a bit more than they have been already.

Perception and Surveillance strikes me as one of the bigger examples. Vigilance I think can be kept separate, as (to me at least) it reflects a sense of "combat readiness" rather than just "awareness of my environment."

Underworld and Streetwise I'd say should be kept separate. Underworld reads as knowing the facts of a particularly seedy environment, where Streetwise is how to maneuver/survive in a seedy environment. The example that an earlier poster gave of Ben and Luke in Mos Eisley is a good one, with Ben being quite used to dealing with "hives of scum & villainy" but Luke is completely out of his element.

Charm and Negotiation also seem to have a lot of overlap, being two different ways to accomplish the same thing, but I think there's enough difference in the execution of how it's done to warrant keeping them separate. Charm is literally sweet-talking the person, while Negotiation is buying that person's help.

About Brawl and Melee… I'm currently on the fence about this one. There's enough real-life difference between fighting unarmed and fighting with a weapon that I can see why they were broken out into separate skills, but at the same time I think it'd be simpler in gaming terms to just have one skill.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Perception is awareness of your environment and detailed analysis. Vigilance is general preparedness. A High Perception Character is one who looks at someone and can tell he is left handed, just came from the dirt side street three streets over where he got some particular food. The High Vigilance character is seeing that the rodian is working up his courage to try and shoot me, so I'm going to shoot him first under the table. But, Vigilance ALSO covers obsessive preparations. One of the uses is you can do a vigilance check to see if you have gotten piece of a equipment you had forgotten as a player. High Vigilance is "always prepared", high Perception is "I notice stuff REALLY well"

Knowledge Underworld: "This planet's main crime syndicate is the Cartel under Gorto the Hutt. He specializes in slavery, spice, and arms smuggling. However, he is currently having issues with the Black Sun Syndicate moving in on his territory, especially in the Spice and Arms smuggling areas. If you want to get on his good side….." While Streetwise is "OK, that guy on the corner? He is selling death sticks. That rodian that followed the Twi'lek into the alley? Mugging. Now, let's see..AH! There we go….Ryn markings. That place? Safe house. Let's go and get some grub while we wait for the boy-scout."

Charm is, pretty much, the main social skill. It is sweet talking people, talking your way past guards, convincing people not to shoot you. Negotiation, though, is understanding how to use leverage in a bargain, how to read them for if they are going to go up or down, and, of course, a degree of contract writing skills, including phrasing things so you don't get screwed in the bargain. Not the same skill.

Honestly, I think Skulduggery could be broken up: It covers picking pockets, forging, lock picking, etc. I can understand why they compressed it, though. And, frankly, I do not see a problem with it compressed into one skill.

What would be really nice, though, would be some form of "skill specialization" system. You know, like someone with Skulldugery who is specialized in picking locks, or someone with Vigilance who is specialized in initiative, or someone with brawl who is specialized with Teras Kasi, etc.

Brawl: "Attacks made with Brawl inflict strain upon their target, unless the acting character has a natural weapon that induces wound damage."

This was written by someone who has never taken a blow by a "street fighter" or a trained martial artist. The point of being trained in hand to hand combat is so that you can disable your opponent in a few seconds, tops. This includes breaks, dislocations, outright death, locks, holds, really, the list has thousands of possibilities for a trained/experienced "brawler."

The problem with this "Skill" is that it is conflicted. It wants to be the skill for unarmed combat for experienced and inexperienced fighters. It wants to inflict "Strain" damage, but makes the analogy that this is what wild animals would do with their natural weapons.

What the Skill needs, at the very least, is to establish a meaningful difference between a trained/exp. fighter and someone who isn't. For example, a trained martial artist/UFC style fighter should be considered to have "natural weapons" that inflict wound damage, much like a lion with its claws.

And, if that's the case, then Brawl and Melee really become the same thing.

In short, I'm in the "consolidate" these skills camp. You should have one skill for basic, trained "close combat". Having a weapon in hand should impact the fight with advantages/threat (or whatever) + wounds.

A "trained" martial artist should have its own specialization/career (Monk for example). My first character attempted to create a "Shaolin Wookie" and I ended up with Hired Gun: Marauder + Colonist: Scholar + Force Exile. Ideally though the Monk would be a career that mixes some intellectual discipline + trained fighting. But this definitely feels like its own book, not a Core universe thing. I'm certainly happy with my combo as is, with the exception of Brawl being this confused skill for unarmed combat that doesn't actually reflect what trained unarmed combat looks like.

@KnightFysher

Not to invalidate your post or anything, but it appears you were only reading the skills chapter.

The combat chapter states that unarmed attacks deal wounds in damage base, but have the option to inflict strain. (p. 137, Unarmed Combat, third paragraph, last sentence).

This obviously highlights the need for the skills chapter to be cleaned up and brought in line with how the system is currently working (or vice versa).

KommissarK said:

How dare you kick my soapbox out from under me!

*goes off to reread combat chapter*

lol, thanks for the pointer. It appears I missed something critical.

As a player and an ST, I prefer broad and overlapping skills.

Beej said:

Excellent! Totally agree and great way to explain it!!

For people wondering, Negotiate is the skill to use for any skill-based Gambling, with a Deceit being for cheating.

I guess that makes sense, as Negotiate is about being able to tell how much to give and take, which is essentially How To Bluff 101.

I think I am in two camps with regards to the current skills lists, some are too narrow or overlap and need to be consolodated, such as charm and bargain or cool and discipline, or some need to be split such as skullduggery which covers a number of distint applications.

I also believe that there needs to be an additional ranged skill - ranged simple, this should cover thrown weapons, spears and bows etc, ranged light should then cover pistols to rifles and carbine,s and ranged heavy should cover ballistic weapons (rocket launcers etc) and repeating blasters or any big weapon not coverred by heavy weapons. At the moment ranged heavey is so vast covering spears to missile launchers.

lupex said:

Charm and Negotiate are totally different. Cool and Discipline are close, but once we get the rules for using Discipline with The Force, it'll be very distinct. Cool is natural grace and composure, while Discipline is training your mind to overcome your natural instincts. Very different traits in a person.

Inksplat said:

I agree in practice and I am all for players having options of using the right skill for thier characters, however the descriptions need to make the distinctions cleare as both discipline and cool basically say say they are about keeping cool in the face of danger?

lupex said:

The key, I think, is that Cool is Active, whereas Discipline is Passive, which the descriptions do make clear.

Cool is all about preparation and planning. Discipline is an edge instilled by training that kicks in automatically. Cool won't do anything for you if you're caught by surprise, whereas Discipline will always be there to keep you from bolting in the face of the Rancor.

Its similar to Perception/Surveillance. One is just your natural state, while the other is when you're actively doing something.

GoblynByte said:

I believe this is intentional and reflects the portrayal in the movies where all the characters communicate even though many characters can't speak basic.

I agree with Blaked. I think the overall intent is that everyone knows at least one common language in the group and the rest is left up to the PCs/GM to decide what they know. When I ran Saga, I used to award languages to players based on play. When they were bumming around Wild Space and Outer Rim they bummed into a bunch of people who spoke Sy Bisti. For a number of sessions they needed a translator unit but after a while they picked it up enough to not need one.

I think the approach FFG is going with is you know all the right languages to keep the group and plot moving and the languages you don't are the ones that the GM uses as plot devices.

I am re-posting here this question as it dawned on me late that I posted it incorrectly in the General Discussion forum. My apologies!

Cool vs. Vigilance

Can someone please explain to me in terms that even I can understand when a GM would prefer one over the other when calling for Initiative checks? It seems to me that these two skills and their usage for this purpose has the potential to confuse and perhaps be the subject of much debate at the gaming table.

angelicdoctor said:

You've already gotten several replies to your original post in the General Discussion, forum, sir! Inlcuding a comment from ynnen (Jay Little), the lead designer of the system.

angelicdoctor said:

To summarize the answer given over in General Discussion:

Cool is used when you are able to plan ahead for incoming violence, such as having set-up an ambush, or walking into a room where weapons are drawn and you plan to get the party started. That it also has non-combat uses (resisting social skills) is an added perk.

Vigilance is used when you aren't able to plan ahead for incoming violence, such as being on the receiving end of an ambush, or somebody in a currently peaceful cantina suddenly tries to break a bottle over your head for no reason other than they've taken a disliking of you.

Also, the division permits Force-sensitive heroes to have those "Jedi reflexes" by way of the Uncanny Reactions talent (bonus to Vigilance checks) but being on the same playing field as everyone else when planning to do violence ahead of time (no talents to provide bonuses to Cool checks).

Thank you GM Chris and Donovan! I'll be over there directly.