Hi all,

Dark Angels Librarians are all members of the Deathwing, according to canon. How have players and GMs reconciled this for brand new characters? On paper they wouldn't have sufficient XP spend available on their first outing to earn such an honour.

Huh?

According to what cannon?

9 lber or 150mm?

XP spend for an honor?

What does that mean?

What honor?

Specifics man! I'm a gamer, Jim, not a mind reader!!!

Umm…. Anyone else?

Technically Deathwing is treated in the system as an advanced package, but rank 1 can't get it.

Honestly? I wouldn't worry about it too much. I certainly wouldn't force a player to take it once they do get the xp, and you can always just say the character is just bad at being a member of the Deathwing/was not allowed to take terminator armour with him.

I certainly would not give a rank 1 character access to the package just because fluff demands it.

I'll admit, I don't know that much about Dark Angels, so I would assume you just say the character has Terminator Honours (oh boy, not too useful without the renown/requisition).

OK thanks. However, the main thing isn't so much the armour and renown (the DA Codex allows Librarians to fight in power armour) but the knowledge they possess. Even a Lexicanium is a member of the Inner Circle and therefore privy to the knowledge of the Fallen. In Rites of Battle, Deathwing is a Distinction worth 1650 XP, gaining Chosen of the Chapter, Forbidden Lore (The Fallen), and Master of Secrets. In addition, sensibly, they should pick up the buffs and Insanity Points of Initiate of Secrets, as their faith is shaken by the awful truth of the Dark Angels (another 300 XP). It is this part of the canon, rather the requisition and renown, that I am trying to resolve from a gameplay point of view.

Well then I'd say that in the default state, the character is just "a bit rusty" on some of that knowledge.

Don't DA's get access to some Forbidden Lores? Couldn't that just be the extent of what that Rank 1 character knows? And maybe it is a bit of a stretch.

I think Rites of Battle may have something to represent a DA's knowledge of such things as a deed/distinction. Honestly, if it bugs you that much, just offer it (the requisite forbidden lores) as an elite advance at +200 xp. Maybe its just how I run DW, but I don't really make use of the Fallen. I would not allow them to take any of the special stuff until they hit the needed rank/xp cost.

Librarian's are not members of the deathwing by default. They, like interrigator chaplins, have greater access to the secrets of the Dark Angels than standard marines of their experience level. This however does not make them members of the deathwing. They exist in a support and command structure partially seperate from the rank and file, like most librarians, techmarines, and chaplian in other chapters, which is directly answerable to the inner circle, mainly cause the chief librarian is in the inner circle; unlike standard marines, where the dictates of the inner circle are passed down to company commanders and so forth.

The Deathwing is specifically the first company of the dark angels who, unknown to the rest of the imperium, are tasked with confronting the fallen and are thus given access to knowledge that is ussually reserved to commander level individuals, ie. are inducted into the inner circle. So while librarian and deathwing share the commonality of being in the inner circle, or at least close enough that is does not matter, they are not nessecarily the same thing.

Actually it's a bit more complicated than that, the Dark Angel chapter and their successors have what is called an Inner Circle, as in "those in the know regarding the Fallen", all librarians and chaplains etc… are part of it, as are some (not always all) company captains.

Likewise all members of the Deathwing are part of said Inner Circle, but those two are not mutually inclusive, not ALL Inner Circle members are / were Deathwing.

from the Dark angels background info in their most recent 40K codex.

The inner circle is composed of the Deathwing, all of the Masters (company captains), the grand master (head librarian) and the supreme grand master (chapter master).

The deathwing is composed of the first company (terminator vets), the interrogator chaplains, the senior librarians, the master of the forge, and most of the chapter's landraiders.

Librarians are not informed of the truth upon induction, but upon being raised to senior librarian, and only raised after discerning part of the truth themselves.

there might be some inaccuracy, particularly on the tech-marines, and i don't know about the apothecaries, since I am writing from memory, but i am certain of the last point.

It comes down to whether or not the Inner Circle trust the Dark Angel with the knowledge and since this is something that they only tell a certain special few (and even then very begrudgingly). Also it is not beyond the scope that even Librarians are witches with a link to the Warp and the Void. Librarians are expecially watched closely.

The time it takes to earn that trust would explain the pre-reqs for the Advanced Speciality.

Also on an related note Tech-Marines are never introduced into the Inner Circle because of their Oaths sworn to Mars and to the Universal Laws which would have there being at risk of spreading such Holy Knowledge.

Deathwing Terminator is an advanced specialty in first founding, and requires rank 4, Terminator Honors and expendature of 3000xp