I created an assault marine in the death watch game I'm playing in - our group consists of an Apothecary, Devastator, Librarian, Tech Marine and Assault Marine.

I assumed I was supposed to be the best at close combat, because my name is ASSAULT marine, but after a few sessions of play I've found that the Iron Hands tech marine has a FREE power fist that can attack as a REACTION in addition to his actions for that turn. The Omniscian Axe is one of the better power weapons in the game, he can replace his entire body with machine parts for cheaper than everyone else AND he gets Artificer Armor at rank 4 when no one else can get it until they're a Hero, and they take it as Signature Wargear.

the Librarian has a Force Weapon, which allows him to pump psychic power into his weapon to deal extra energy damage to enemies, and can basically bend the laws of physics and reality to his whim if he's willing to risk the perils of the warp.

I start with no special wargear other than a jump pack for free, and I can attack twice as a full action at rank 1. I don't deal particularly special damage, I don't start with a particularly useful melee weapon, and I have no special skills other than being able to jump pack (Potentially hurting myself in the process because of the falling damage rules) and basically get overshadowed by these two in Melee combat.

I'm a little upset here, because it seems like being an Assault Marine is pointless. They don't get very much at all. Maybe someone can explain why I'm called an Assault Marine, if I'm not particularly skilled at Assaulting.

Uhhh, Tech Marines don't START with Omnissian Power Axes RAW. If your GM let him do that then that's bull. Otherwise, take a good weapon yourself! Look at the advance tables: Assault Marines get a LOT of good melee advances that other specialties can't touch. The Librarian may be able to do more one-hit damage, but they might punch a hole in the universe, or simply fail the Focus Power test. The Techmarine may be tougher than you, but he can't get nearly as skilled in melee.

An asault marine can get lightning attack. Then later on get perturnatural speed as well.

An Assault marine can parry multiple times, and counter-attack each time he parries. And still have an extra dodge left over.

An assault marine can get talents giving him up to +20 additional WS bonus for outnumbering.

An assault marine can make an attack then make an assassin strike move to engage another enemy or get out of range of a power weapon multiple attack action.

An assault marine can parry an attack, then counterattack, then assassin strike out of the way of the enemies remaining attacks.

An assault marine can strike any location on an enemies body with pinpoint accuracy with no penalty.

An assault marine can murder hordes just by jumping on them.

An assault marine can cover a HUGE amount of distance with no additional training.

So you see, there are a lot of things an assault marine can do your other battle-brothers can't do. (And I'd be yelling at your librarian and tech-marine if they focus on damage and not on their roles, If your GM isn't putting problems in your way requiring the use of their skills then I'd yell at him too. We had a Librarian get all the way to rank 7 with 0-ZERO forbiden lores or knowledge skills, he took all combat abilities. Our group almost made a pack with a daemon and lost out on several hundred XP because our LIBRARIAN couldn't pass a +30 forbidden lore warp test for not having the skill!)

One oft overlooked weapon is the Power Fist… I know what you're going to say, "but the T-hammer is better it does +5 damage and has concussive… whah whah whah." The Power Fist gives you the x3 US bonus all the time: damage, strength tests, opposed tests, not just when hitting things with it. It can't be disarmed either (unless your character gets "dis"-armed hyuck hyuck hyuck). And for all intents and purposes it counts as unarmed damage and works with attacks and abilities that require you to be unarmed.

Clarification on Jump Packs, you do NOT need to take piloting tests simply to move around or charge enemies. Those kinds of things are trivial and require no real effort on the 'pilot'. You only take piloting tests when you do something difficult. Say trying to make a jump in gale force winds, weave your way through multiple demolished towers, or land on a 5 inch wide ledge.

You don't take falling damage from landing either, landing is not falling, only if you failed a piloting test (by 5 or more degrees like vehicle driving and piloting skills) will you crash. Unless the piloting test for the very dangerous thing you were attempting was to actually stick the landing (like the ledge above).

No, he doesn't get an Omniscian axe right off the bat - but he gets a power fist. I get a chainsword.

Also, yeah I get some cool stuff LATER, but right off the bat I'm the the third best melee guy in the group. The Librarian does Librarian stuff when he needs to do librarian stuff. The tech marine is great at fixing stuff and hacking stuff when he needs to be - but we're still marines, and we're still going to be in combat a lot. My issue is that my specialty is something other people are REALLY good at.

I'm not mad that I don't get to be UBER, I'm mad that I don't get anything cool right off the bat - I get a jump pack - something that costs 15 requisition. The librarian gets his choice of a force weapon, which you can't get until you get a higher renown level. The tech marine gets a servo arm that acts as a power weapon and can be used as a reaction instead of requiring one of his.

I can attack twice as a full action. that's it. with a chain sword, if I decide to go melee, because I can't get any good melee weapons without having a higher renown level.

Tech-marines do not start off with power fists. If you mean the servo arm, that costs a Reaction to use. Which means he can't dodge or parry.

You must be doing something wrong. Rank 1 AMs are very killy.

Being able to attack twice as a full action and retain your Reaction is actually rather a big deal.

This will go up to 3 attacks as soon as you get Two-Weapon Wielder, which you could have gotten as part of your initial XP.

The servo arm doesn't count as a power weapon. it has a very nice damage and Pen but can only ever attack once per round and does not have a power field or tearing. don't underestimate chainswords. with tearing you will be getting Righteous Fury all over the place.

In our group the AM out damages every other member of the group. He will kill things before the Techie can get to melee because of the jump pack (which the techie shouldn't be able to use because of the big ol servo arm.) Yeah, the Librarian can req a jump pack and do all right in melee for one good hit per round, but the AM doesn't have to wory about being sucked away into the warp or calling down Demon Prince's to kill him just by hitting something hard.

Yes, at rank one with nothing special, they can do more on those single hits. You get more attacks and at rank 2 with Lightning Attack and Dual Weilding you get 4 per round.

Cheap WS, Strength, and Ag mean you can move further, dodge and parry easier, and hit harder than anyone else. (yes they do get some of those cheap but nobody else gets all three.) While they are buying their skills and powers you will be increasing your attributes and getting even more talents to make you better.

In closing: Suck it up for a rank or two then blow them away.

Demonskunk's GM here,

Later down the line the AM seems like it can be awesome, but it strikes me as odd that the other specialties seem a bit more… Special… At rank 1.

It doesn't help that the Tech Marine is from the Iron Hands chapter, so he has access to a lot of things that are pretty **** neat for a Tech Marine (i.e early access to more levels of "The flesh is weak" and eventual access to those bionic parts that only Iron Hands or the **** Forge Masters have access to) but while the AM has noticeable maneuverability over the Tech Marine, the Tech Marine doesn't really have to worry about a lot of damage hurting him- even if he is a target. The Kill-Team's TM currently has the highest all around armour that applies against fire damage even and it just seems like it will only get worse from there (he'll get access to Artificer armour before long and he still has levels of "the flesh is weak" to get and a few other traits down the line that will basically make his armour skyrocket).

I can completely see the bad-ass'ery of the AM later down the line, but it is kind of funny that the specialty doesn't focus in any sort of defence that I can see beyond the ability to parry/dodge multiple times, which will no doubt be useful when he gets it, but right now the Tech-Marine is just a freakin' walking tank with a fairly reliable melee weapon on his back that has a little bit of reach and is always with him- so all those pesky requisition points just go to covering his ranged combat and (during the first mission) his bionic parts. Just seems funny that right off the bat the AM has the potential for quicker combat, but the TM has the reliability of stable combat (fair armour, fair damage, and 0 f*cks about being hurt). The AM looks like it is a risk-reward class that seems out of place to most of the others (aside from Librarians who, you know, can get bum attacked by a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh if he so much as farts in the wrong direction).

I don't know, it might be that we are looking at the class in the wrong light, or that we've just stumbled across a really neat TM build- or hell maybe I am just screwing up somewhere on the rules of combat- but it is an interesting observation I've made over his Team's first mission.

Angrad said:

((forgot to note that while the Librarian is a risk-reward class as well, his abilities are quite noticeable at rank 1))

The Assault Marine is meant to be good at melee. He is. OK, he doesn't start off too spectacular, but then no one does. OK, most Devastators against Hordes, and Librarians are quite noticable due to the psychic powers, but everyone else is meh.

Later on: The Assault Marine is busted. Totally unbalanced. Rank 2 he gets lightning attack, while everyone else has to wait ages for Swift Attack and some characters never get it. With a power sword (or any power weapon really) he starts to rival, and then surpass a Devastator at killing hordes. The major disadvantage of melee (the time taken to get there) is off set by the jump pack (unless you have really long distances). Unlike the Devastator he can't be switched off (engage the devastator in melee and he becomes derpy). With power fists, Thunderhammers and the like he becomes a better "big un" killer than the Devastator. And this is all at the same time as being just as good at shooting as everyone except the Devastator and the Tactical Marine.

Rank 6 (where we stopped playing) the Assault Marine was just the answer to everything. Only the Librarian can really compete (and if done right is more powerful, but it isn't stepping on anyone's toes as much).

A few things:

1. What armour mark/history do you have? - It could be your armour is poorly suited for the role. While RAW may say its random, I would suggest strong GM oversight in the assigning of armour/histories (AMs are quite likely to have Mk6 Corvus/Melee oriented armour histories)

2. How often are you making use of swift attack. Are you making use of TWW? - Swift/Lightning attack is what sets the AM apart from others. TWW is also excellent, but I personally stress it less for style reasons.

3. What range/distance are combats being handled at? -If it is too enclosed, much of the AM's movement advantage is lost.

4. How deadly are your foes in melee? -If the techmarine is free to use his servo-arm attack, the enemy must not be deadly enough to require dodging. This could be because of his tanking ability, but that will eventually not be enough to soak an attack.

All I can really tell ya is that AM eventually becomes capable. They have comparatively poor early game, but once you have those lightning claws, you tear things apart with your already high WS.

There is also the fact that the AM, Dev, and Tactical and even to a certain extent the Apothecaries are your 'standard' Space marines. Where the Tech and Librarians are the 'special characters' This is most apparent at rank one, before the others get their cool talents that let them shine.

Nathiel said:

Also remember the 'standard' marine types get a lot of their talents at a much cheaper price than the 'special characters'. So not only can you purchase every melee talent out of AM with ease, but you can also purchase every hatred and/or SM talent you want and not really be hurting for exp nearly as much.

Funny thing is, if the AM keeps charging into combat he can become a tank too. The Kill Team I'm GMing has a Space Wolves AM who blew himself up in the first mission and then got both his arms cut off in the second (one by a genestealer, one by a Heretek). He now has a tonne of bionics, and can tank almost anything (save Broadside Rounds, but really only Dreadnoughts can tank them). He is the default damage taker and scout, and once he reaches Rank 2 he can Lightning Attack, and then he's a damage dealer too.

KommissarK said:

1. This game's randomness is part of the problem. Actualyl it's ALL of the problem. Because of the forced random stat rolls, I got stats that were pretty sh*tty for an assault marine. I ended up with a 42 strength, a 45 weapon skill and a 38 toughness, so after spending XP to increase my stats, I now have a 50 ws, a 52 strength and a 43 toughness. I've been almost killed the most in the group because I have NO tankability as an assault marine beyond the average marine, and melee weapons used against a horde are completely and totally worthless, so I've basically been relying on a flamer in my off-hand to kill the only enemy type we've been facing, despite having a signature flaming chainsword.

My armor history gives me a +10 to intimidate and a -5 to charm. It's pretty much been entirely worthless.

2. I don't get the chance to use swift attack, it's useless against hordes, and anything that isn't a horde we've fought so far hasn't been much for melee. I don't have Two Weapon Weilder because I wasn't sure which to get - melee or ranged. Both are useful and useless. and in order to weild a melee and ranged weapon effectively at the same time I have to burn 1000xp - also I've been spending XP on raising those pitiful stats to a reasonable level. I have the lowest average stats in the group.

3. Combats are being handled at variable ranges, so we've been in a variety of situations. Usually I jump pack into a horde and try to fight it, and then almost die.

4. They're completely worthless. Groups of IG, orks, etc, but they rip right into me because I kind of have sh*tty stats, and my armor history is basicalyl useless in every situation that isn't social (and useless in social situations because my fellowship is only a 39, which means I get a 49 to intimidate and a 34 to charm)

I'm sure it becomes capable later, but I don't like playing second banana to the rest of the team when I feel like I should be tanking.

I'm also not wanting to get a lot of mechanical augmentations, I'm a Salamander and I take pride in my humanity.

This forum really needs an edit button. and if it HAS an edit button, it needs to be pointed out to me :V

I forgot to post my sheet.

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Demonskunk said:

1. Please see the War Cry special use for Intimidate.

2. Why is Swift Attack useless against Hordes? It's precisely twice as good as Standard Attack.

PS Orks are intended to be brutal in melee. How IG Hordes are damaging you in melee at all is mysterious if they are outfitted as regular, since your AP is doubled against their combat knives and they can do a maximum of 2d10 + 1d5 + 6 damage; maximum a very unlikely 31, average 19.5. Whereas your lowest damage soak is TB8 + (AB8 x 2) = 24.

1. every attempt to intimidate has been saved effectively.

2. because a melee attack is precisely worthless against hordes in the first place.

IG were murdering me with combat knives in melee. I don't know how but they were.

Why are you multiplying the armor bonus by 2?

Blade of the soldier of the Imperium aren(t primitive.

As the combat knife of the SM, the combat knife, bayonnet chainsword ( for officer ) or energetic blade of IG are also modern weapon and you should not double armour against them.

IG are human, not super warrior, but they are still soldiers and as soldier got weapons that could be usefull like metal mono edge combat instead of obsidian or bones blade.

EDIT BUTTON HERE ^^^^^
Demonskunk said:

There is an edit button, but it is only available for about 5-10 min after you make your post, then it disapears it is above my first sentance.

Thebigjul said:

Actually…. The combat knives used by the Imperial Guardsman profile in Deathwatch (Core) are indeed primitive. I guess those aren't mono-molecular like space marines. Though those Guardsman do 1d5-3+SB(3) in unarmed damage which also counts as primitive (or at leasts armour counts double). So a knife which does 1d5+6 (SB already added) is better than nothing.

Compared to a space marine's 1D10 +SB (armour NOT counting double).

Melee attacks against hordes gain an additional hit for every 2 degrees of success on your WS test to attack, plus all other additional hits.
a WS 50 marine with swift attack and a powersword does the following:
Swing 1 is 45
1 hit for hitting + 1 hit for power sword = 2 hits
Swing 2 is 28
1 hit for hitting +1 hit for 2 DoS +1 hit for power sword = 3 hits
Total of 5 hits for most likely 5 Mag damage. Not bad, not as good as weapons specifically designed to kill hordes though yes, but those other weapons are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO KILL HORDES. On the other hand you've done better than a standard bolter could do if it hit with all its shots. Throw in Lightning attack, Descent of 'whatever' which does 1d10 mag damage on a charge, and some WS advances and you're easily dealing 10-20 mag damage a turn.

Demonskunk said:

Because Guardsmen's combat knives are Primitive. They're not mono weapons, just sharp metal. Hence your AP is doubled. See the Guardsman entry in the man book.

Statistically,assuming BS and WS are the same, you should be doing more damage on average to Hordes than someone with a bolter using Swift Attack.

I have a hunch that your GM thinks that the +1 for X damage type adds on per hit, not per attack. It doesn't. A bolter that hits three times should do 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 damage, not (1 + 1) + (1 + 1) + (1 + 1) = 6 damage.

Demonskunk said:

You do know that extra DoS from a melee attack = extra magnitude damage, correct? Its covered in the horde rules.

Failure to use Swift Attack on a horde is indeed a problem. I would say TWW is more effective than stat increases. 5% boost to melee accuracy, or a +15% boost while dual wielding.

In Only War, guardsmen knives are no longer primitive. But that's another game line.