15.200 Space Marines is quite an impressive amount, but taking into account that both Ork and Imperial Guard numbers ranged in the billions, even that number would have barely been a blip in the Augurs if they weren't that powerful. If that were the case, Space Marines wouldn't be irrelevant on a Galactic scale, they would be irrelevant on a theatrical scale. Warhammer 40K often works on an impossibly huge scale. If a planetary invasion force numers in the tens of millions, which would be the bare minimum to engage in planetary warfare against all but the more sparsely populated Agri-Worlds, taking out, say a few thousand along a few high value targets in a single operation is still a scalpel surgery more than a broadsword swing.

Space Marines are definetly not immortal, but they're very, very difficult to kill in the fluff. Otherwise the Traitor Legions would have run out of Legionnares millenia ago, Warp time or no.

Musclewizard said:

JuankiMan said:

You can certainly complain that those numbers would be unrealistic for warfare on a planetary scale, but them's the breaks and all of GW's fluff has used similar numbers. Focusing purely on those incidents where it was the Space Marines "profiting" from this by enabling them to somehow subdue an entire world and using this as proof of their awesomeness would be, well, applying double standards.

Not to mention that I suspect most of these incidents actually include a lot of unnamed IG regiments in the background that simply remain unnamed, much like all those Greek auxiliaries conveniently left out of the "300" myth. I mean, hey, there's also a reference about an Order of Battle Sisters conquering 100 worlds (!), but I don't interpret it as them doing it on their own and without help. I'm not that biased.

JuankiMan said:

And you are half-correct: Space Marines are very difficult to kill in some fluff, but "easy" to kill in other. It simply depends on which sources you're looking at, for arguably there is quite a difference between GW's version of the Space Marines and that propagated in some other material. The computer game springs to mind, and I very much recall that interview with the THQ spokesperson going on about how 1 Space Marine = 1.000.000 Orks.

Musclewizard said:

It should still be obvious why Horde Rules are much more dangerous than a slim chance to maybe cause a single Wound, though.

Yes, I find unrealistic that the greatest WAAAGH!!! in recent memory had less boyz than the armies of many of today's countries. I also find it funny that the IG had less than 1.5 million men on the ground and yet the Navy had more than 40 million floating in space. Also, it is stated that "billions of Imperial soldiers died in the war" which seems unlikely if they weren't deployed in such numbers in the first place, all of which leads me to believe that the list is most likely abridged or incomplete or GW just messed up, which they do often. Actually, GW is very inconsistent on what constitutes a "planetary invasion force", which can go from hundreds of thousand soldiers to several millions. I just choose to go with what makes the slightest bit of sense.

And respecting CSM, I know they recruit people from the Eye of Terror. What I meant is that, after 10.000 years of undending conflict, the only Legionnares from the Horus Heresy still alive should be those that already achieved immortality.

JuankiMan said:

Though the latter can actually be explained, if you consider that Armageddon 3 is an ongoing warzone where the conflict is still raging, thus making it necessary to throw more and more troops into the grinder in order to keep the Ork infestation down or have any hopes of eradicating it completely.

I think GW fluff is pretty consistent in sporting "suspiciously low" numbers. The only invasion that I recall actually featuring millions of troops landing at once was the Siege of Vraks - and that was a Forgeworld book. I think it's just a GW thing, but similar to the Clone Wars in the Star Wars franchise you could probably find a number of excuses if you were looking hard enough (limited means of transportation, troops needed elsewhere, resistance not warranting greater deployment). Ironically enough, the very fact that the Imperium constantly tithes the more industrialised member worlds in particular for their military automatically means that a planet likely won't sport as great a defense force as you might otherwise expect.

JuankiMan said:

So much for my take on 40k, anyhow, as resulting out of the books I've read. There's just nothing we can do other than to agree on simply following two different - and, in this aspect conflicting - interpretations of the setting, borne out of how we prioritise our sources (and I'm sure each of us has read a lot that the other hasn't). Your version is supported by the RAW of this RPG, whereas I'd have to houserule stuff to make it fit.

Lynata said:

Admitedly, I got the number by calculating the ship crews using the RT line of books, so technically it's "their vision" (though GW's vision includes hundreds of dudes pulling a macrocannon shell into place using chains, so I think it is not off the mark). At a median of 25.000 per escort, 65.000 per light cruiser equivalent, 95.000 per second-line cruiser, 100.000 per first-line cruiser and 175.000 per battleship equivalent (speculative, since exact numbers have never been given), you end up at roughly 40.000.000 crewmen and Chapter serfs serving aboard the combined fleet. And if you can only pull 120 militia regiments out of a population of 500.000.000.000 then you either aren't trying hard enough or your definition of regiment is insane .

And the older the source material you pull the more bizarre it gets. I still remember the Ultramarines Chief Librarian being a Space Marine Astropath Human-Eldar hybrid . Yes, that was a… thing (the mini is custom, the picture and background info are not).

@JuankiMan

Also, it is stated that "billions of Imperial soldiers died in the war" which seems unlikely if they weren't deployed in such numbers in the first place,

Actually, I find that to be entirely in keeping with what we know about the Administratum…

Other than that, yes, the numbers are ridiculously low and there is really no way to support them. China, the US, India, North Korea and Russia alone have 7 million men under arms, reservists excluded. Armageddon is a hive world, one of those that make Shanghai look like a village with lots of personal space for its inhabitants. Combine that with a presumed higher rather than vastly lower grade of militarization and any planetary invasion that doesn't number in the double digit millions becomes a laughing stock.

JuankiMan said:

And lo and behold, it's different.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?209477-Rogue-Trader-drastically-changes-Imperial-ship-crew-sizes

Moot point, though. I actually thought you were referring to trained armsmen, not just the poor souls they catched off the street and pressed into service as deck scrubbers.

JuankiMan said:

Well, GW's most current definition of a regiment is that its size is supposed to reflect its "comparative power", which is why Valhallan regiments tend to be a lot bigger than ones from Cadia. I wouldn't be surprised if this means the Hive Militia regiments are above the 100k mark, simply because they are poorly trained and equipped compared to the actual Guard.

That aside, the Codex Armageddon actually does mention that they weren't "trying hard enough" because the planet was still suffering from the 2nd War of Armageddon and most resources were poured into a reconstruction effort rather than to ensure military readiness. The powers-that-be simply assumed they would have more time to complete their work.

JuankiMan said:

1st Edition was something else, though there were relatively little differences between 2nd and 6th. And some stuff didn't change at all - there's still an "undead" God-Emperor, for example.

Cifer said:

Neither China nor the US, India, North Korea or Russia have to surrender vast parts of their military all the time to be shipped off-world and never see their home again, though. You can bet that this planet would have much smaller armies if a portion of them would just vanish all the time.

The Administratum probably has some complicated calculation on how many troops can be drafted from a planet, and how many citizens have to remain civilians simply to breed the next generation, ensuring that this world is capable of sustaining a stable recruitment ratio over millennia. Long term planning ftw.

@Lynata

Let's assume the entire standing armies would get drafted to the guard (which would technically change nothing at all because that would result in the wars these guys get poured into to grow correspondingly larger because now a planet is defended by its own PDF and the IG regiments raised on others). So let's instead go with only the reservists staying at home for the PDF - I mean, for the countries mentioned, those are merely another twelve million.
The numbers just don't work, whichever way one turns them.

Cifer said:

They probably could, if they recruit every second child born, but (a) on the long term that would seriously decrease the population size, (b) drastically shrink the economy and © you also still need to equip them with weapons and armour you're never going to see again.

Does it match up perfectly with what we're being told in the fluff? I don't know, I just think it sounds "reasonable enough" to keep me from pouring hours into the calculation that would be necessary to prove or disprove it.

Tithes are not a yearly bussiness as, seeing how the Warp works and how Imperial bureaucracy works, it would be completely unfeasible.

And yes, those 40 million are not all armsmen, though roughly 10% of them are (likely more, since they are active military vessels) not counting any Naval Boarding Troopers they may be carrying, which would still amount to 4 million, more than twice the supposed troops on the ground. Also, if you double-check the date, that report is dated one year after the invasion started, and you'd think that with Orks coming out of the woodwork you'd put reconstruction on hold and give every able citizen something to shoot with, which Armaggedon produced in vast quantities.

And no disrespect to Mr Chambers, but the guy was tripping acid when he said a Frigate had a crew of around 500. Have you read the BFG rulebook? These people load torpedoes by hand !

JuankiMan said:

See, Codex Imperial Guard (5E) says differently.

JuankiMan said:

Again going by FFG's interpretation.

Really, we could debate all day long, but as I already pointed out we are going by different sources here, so naturally your take on the setting - as influenced by FFG (and I presume some other licensed material) - will invariably end up with quite some distance to my take on the setting - as influenced by GW studio material. Neither of us is "wrong", we're just using two different lenses to look at the 41st millennium … to borrow an expression from novel author Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

The only thing I'm sad about is that my knowledge is practically worthless around here.

JuankiMan said:

Produced and shipped. The Imperium generally doesn't let resources lie around untapped, I think.

That said, if it's one year after the initial landing, who knows how many Hive Militias have been killed off already. I admit I did not look at the date, though I suppose it makes sense that not all the forces present in that list were there from day 1. The Imperial Guard would probably gradually replace the Hive Militias and Steel Legion regiments in the fighting, seeing that there's an endless supply of the former being shipped in from off-world where the latter can only be raised locally.

Lynata said:

Wonder how they manage to pull it off, since warp travel tends to take months and Imperial bureaucracy is as fluid as tar. However, when reading that quote I noticed that the standard tithe is 1/10th of the standing army. It can be higher, depending on circumstances, but unless it became ridiculously high, which is nonesensical given Armaggedon's importance to the sector, the PDF should have been colossal.

Lynata said:

Actually you might be surprised to know that most of my sources come from GW itself, knowledge about the Navy from BFG specifically. I've been playing Warhammer 40K in its various shapes and forms for almost 15 years and am an avid devourer of lore. FFG was just kind enough to actually produce numbers, something GW apparently loathe to do, which makes sense since in an RPG you need a much more intimate view of the setting.

And both GW and FFG agree that Imperial military vessels carry armsmen aboard to maintain security, defend the ship from incoming boarders and to perform boarding actions themselves. No matter the exact percentage, that's a lot of shotguns up there.

Lynata said:

Unless the Orks took out all factories in a year, the planet should still be able to churn massive amounts of military materiel. Hell, the US reformed its whole military during wartime, the russians kept a massive production rate while being harassed by the Luftwaffe And the Germans kept producing stuff till the very end despite getting their snot kicked out from all sides.

JuankiMan said:

JuankiMan said:

That about high enough? Let's keep in mind Armageddon just had a huge planet-encompassing war 57 years earlier, though. In fact, if we look at Codex Armageddon:

"Hades Hive still lies shattered, whilst the rebuilding of Tartarus and Infernus has only just begun. The legacies of the Second Battle of Armageddon are still plain to see. […] On Armageddon itself, the long process of rebuilding the hives devastated by Ghazghkulls hordes was begun. A process which, despite massive application of resources and manpower, remained incomplete fifty years later. In part, this was due to the increased number of defence regiments which were raised over this period, despite a lowering of Armageddon's tithe of regiments destined for the Imperial Guard."

So I actually misremembered: it wasn't that recruitment was slowed because they were focusing on reconstruction, it was that reconstruction was slowed because they focused on recruiting … from a world that still suffered from the last attack, with production capabilities and population numbers still far from their original values - it is debatable whether that was smart or not, but they couldn't know when the next attack would come so they were playing it safe.

JuankiMan said:

I for one still like digging out the older books if I want to read up on the percentile chance of Marine power armour preventing lasgun injuries, or how many Seraphim the Adepta Sororitas train every year. Like you, I'm a stickler for detail.

JuankiMan said:

As for Hades Hive, it and any industrial facilities within was indeed destroyed completely as Ghazghkull smashed it with an asteroid.

Too bad that the chart seems not from the beginning of the war but, as you pointed out, from a year in; I'd be curious to see the initial numbers of Orks and Armageddon regiments now. The 13th Black Crusade Force Disposition Chart was reprinted in the 6E rulebook as well, though, so those would be some more numbers to discuss. That one, at least, is said to be of the "onset" of the conflict.

Lynata said:

Exactly. For Armageddon a draft of a hundred million men was "typical", since it's actually only 0.2% of its total population. Since you're not going to ship the entire defense force even if the planet has absolutely nothing else to give and the tithe had actually been lowered while recruitment had been increased during the reconstruction period, so the number of armed men stationed on the planet must have been staggering, bound to be many, many more than 1.5 million.

Kiton said:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_mm_caliber

7.62x51 - m14 - m60
7.62x54 - mosin nagant
7.62x39 - ak 47
7.62x25 - tokarev

all 7.62 rounds but very very different weapons and power levels.

thing is astartes rounds can be signifigantly larger and more powerful while maintaining a similar weapon platform in human size. even if it was the same round, it could be the diffrence of the m-14(11.5lbs/5.2kg) to the AK-47(10.5lbs/4.78kg) both weights are loaded weapons. i like wikipedia, but the difference here thats key is the m-14 assumes a 20 round mag and the AK a 30. now ill grant they are diffrent weapon systems but they are the same caliber of weapon and the power of the round and weight of the weapons is different. why shouldnt space marines have larger rounds?
supply is not an issue in this universe not only do they have their home worlds producing rounds recruits and armor but they astartes are requided to seek assistance from the mechnanium to sustain their constant high power warfare.

also i think the system of normal people not being able to use astartes weapons is fine, firstly you should nearly never come in contact with one, second your 6 ft tall hes at least 8 the weapon is sized for him the equivlent down grade for a marine to a human weapon is .50 to .22LR our weapons just arent on par nor should they be or the super human warrior loses a lot of meaning to exist.

JuankiMan said:

Incidentally, where's that population number from? I have seen much lower ones, though there seem to exist several takes on it, presumably from various licensed products. 50.000.000.000 does sound a bit much, imo.

Arguyle said:

The whole matter is not really worth discussing, as this RPG is quite simply propagating a different interpretation of the setting. What one prefers is up to personal preference.

Arguyle said:

Jes Goodwin joking about how they seem to get progressively bigger in the books springs to mind. Well, obviously they don't only get bigger, but also more powerful. If this idealised version is what you prefer, that is your choice (and your good luck, given that FFG seems to cater to it), but it doesn't negate all the other takes on the setting, including GW's own. They are all equal visions. It just took me quite a while to understand that (though I still don't like this modus operandi - it splits the fans into numerous subsets and messes up consistency).

Lynata said:

Actually by catering to everyone it means that GW have a larger overall fanbase than if they had a true set of canon. It means that people who like wargaming, roleplaying, painting, converting, sculpting, or are just fans of sci-fi or rich narrative can all find something within the GW 40k pantheon. As another example, look at how the codexes refer to each other - do they quote each other word for word and always paint a true representation of the other armies? No. The point is to highlight a particular force, and thus a particular set of products and $ for GW. Maybe GW would make marines the most uber fighters ever in the 40k setting but then they'd have every single non-space marine codex saying "and this army sucks in comparison to space marines, so why buy them and waste your money?"

Circular logic, arguments dredging up old and new sources and people bickering or 'agreeing to disagree' aside - this is a huge, all encompassing setting where anything goes. This is also a forum for a specific game within the setting and so whatever is published in the books we are using to play said game are what we consider canon, irrespective of GWs canon or rather lack of canon policy. If people object to the material published in the books you are paying for you could always not pay for them, or perhaps post in the house rules sub-forums that exist all over the place.

As long as people understand the nature of these "lenses" and why it is that the material conflicts, there should not be a problem.

Concerning the forum usage, though, I don't think it would be possible to keep it out entirely. That would require people to forget any fluff they've read elsewhere, and at times it can become difficult to even remember where exactly you picked up something, aside from the whole mess about "expectations". I don't think anyone actually wants to forget everything, too, so the "middle ground" invariably becomes somewhat muddled. Plus, I think the House Rules sub-forum is for house rules, not fluff discussions. The latter can probably sneak in just about anywhere.

About GW's reasoning … well, I'm not saying your assumption is not correct - in fact, it mirrors what I have expressed a few pages back exactly. I'm just saying that other franchises still manage to cover the very same areas of interests without a loss of consistency. That 40k still catches as much flak as said other franchises where conflicts do occur almost seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fans expect stuff to tie into each other, when it is intentionally not designed to.

Lynata said:

I'm not even sure I'd agree with that. Star Wars, for instance, has a ton of consistency problems, especially in regards to the EU (characters acting radically differently depending on author, for instance) and adding in the videogames complicates matters terribly. The Halo universe is another ridiculously bad offender, in the sense they produced books that were regarded as canon, then Bungie released a videogame (Reach) that completed disregarded said books and displaced them as canon. I'd say overall 40k is remarkably consistent, and the areas of disagreement tend to be relatively minor compared to other multiple-author sci-fi universes.

@Arguyle

I'd be fine with them having different dimensions for the same caliber, but that falls into what I'd stated earlier: That it needs to be an affair of loaded ammunition. As things are right now, That Legion bolter and regular human bolt-pistol are both using the same rounds entirely, just like Lasguns use the same charge-pack. You've basically got an RPG or Gyrojet style weapon, but the size of the handle, as opposed to what is loaded in the weapon, is changing a significant amount of damage.

HTMC said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leland_Chee

HTMC said:

HTMC said:

In fact, you could say that this is why the Black Library was founded. GW as a studio wanted to distance itself from these interpretations, and the authors wished to have more liberties than GW was willing to grant them, so a special sub-brand was the best compromise. Dan Abnett gave a rather informative interview here:

Kiton said:

There's not enough proof, either for or against, that human and Astartes bolters use the exact same kind of round even if it is the same caliber. Just as a 7.62x39 round won't fit into a Tokarev pistol, which uses 7.62x25, an Astartes round might not fit inside a human bolter. Similarly, if you try to fire a magnum round with gun not designed to use them you can severely damage or even destroy the weapon in the process.

And laspacks are far from universal. There are almost as many different versions as there are planets that manufacture them and not all of them are compatible, as private Caffran can testify.

Lynata said:

As far as I understand, the only "true canon" is what appears in the movies. George Lucas himself once said that his Star Wars is a completely different entity from the one composed by the Expanded Universe. Other than that, if I remember correctly, is "Semi-canon", which isn't canon but comes from a reputable source, and "non-canon", which pretty much encompasses everything else, incluiding "what-if" scenarios. Now, I'm a fan of Star Wars but not of its Expanded Universe and this was explained to me by a friend who is, so I may have gotten it wrong.

However, it appears that GW has no "true canon", so fans are left scattered to the winds. The very idea of canon being non-existant is absolutely preposterous, unthinkable even. Having no canon at all leads to anarchy and chaos. People need some sort of canon to at least get the feeling that they're all on more or less on the same page, so they'll grab on with all their might to existing sources be it GW, Black Library, FFG or a mix and match of them all.

Lynata said:

Huh, I didn't notice that blunder till you pointed it out. Like the artist, I mistook it for the symbol of the Officio Medicae , which is somewhat similar. But yeah, that's the kind of minor inconsistencies HTMC was talking about. Not that there aren't BIG inconsistencies (that story about Grey Knights butchering an Adepta Sororitas temple to bathe in their blood makes my skin crawl), but more or less, Warhammer 40K is all the same Universe.

There's not enough proof, either for or against, that human and Astartes bolters use the exact same kind of round even if it is the same caliber.

For the purpose of FFG's RPGs, on the other hand, it seems clear that there is a difference. If the powers-that-be won't modify the bolt shell images in the DW Rulebook to make them longer, the next best explanation would probably be superior materials. And who's to say that the guns in this version of 40k might not have more recoil as well, further inserting another difficulty for human operators?

JuankiMan said:

That is probably the best way to view it. You've got the movies on one hand, and the Expanded Universe (which includes the movies) on the other. Everytime Lucas does something, it has to be incorporated into the EU, which can occasionally mean a lot of trouble and major retcons, but given that Lucas doesn't produce that much these days it's not as bad as it may sound at first. The only exception is the Clone Wars CGI series, which (due to Lucas' participation) is counted at movie-level as well - but its writers are actually somewhat cautious and try to keep the EU in mind, which is why we can see Y-Wings and Z-95s finding their way into the Clone Wars era where they were absent from the prequels (where they should have been there).

Personally, I like to envision Lucas like an elephant in a porcellaine store, and the EU authors like a horde of store employees frantically cleaning up the mess he leaves behind. I'm just amazed that even due to this, SW canon truly is very consistent. You've got a canon hierarchy, so even where contradictions arise (which isn't all that often, compared to the sheer amount of information available) you know which tops what. And occasionally, books like the Atlas are released, which combine all the available fluff in a neatly wrapped up and internally consistent tome.

Any franchise should have its Leland Chee.

As for the EU, I'd recommend giving it a chance. Just like with any tie-in faction, some of it stinks, but there's a few real gems to be found. Like that comic ("To the Last Man") which is basically a Star Wars version of the movie " Zulu ". Good stuff.

JuankiMan said:

I suppose that matches my observations! And I've certainly grabbed with all my might as well not too long ago. I suppose we do like the concept of a common ground, and we really like the idea that any addition to the setting makes it bigger and increases our own understanding of the 'verse.

JuankiMan said:

It's certainly a minor thing; they just add up when you keep looking. Vostroyans also recruiting firstborn daughters instead of just sons, Storm Troopers being assigned to normal squads, any and all las weapons having power settings, …
But that's still nothing compared to the changes made to the Deathwatch, or the introduction of "civilian/mortal" weapons - those things can really change the perception of an entire faction, which is when I start considering it major. Some, or in these cases a lot of people will prefer that to the original vision, but it still ends up splitting the fanbase.

Ultimately, I suppose it's not as bad as it may sound at first. Fans of likeminded understanding will gravitate towards one another, whilst those following a different interpretation will either have to adapt or migrate. On this forum, it is at least clear which sources hold precedence for the purpose of discussions (and I feel like I should apologise to a number of posters from a few particularly heated debates back then).

Regarding the Grey Knights - I seem to be one of the few people who regard this incident as absolutely fine. It doesn't actually change any of the previous fluff, it merely "adds" to it. Now by explaining that the Grey Knights occasionally need to reinforce their resistance against corruption with certain rituals. As far as I know, the nature of their resistance was never fully described, so all this does is show how they do it.

What did change, however, was that they turned the GKs from shining Paladins into uberpragmatic Radicals that actually employ Warp Sorcery themselves. This is one of the few big retcons I'm aware of, and I admit I do not like it. FFG seems to stick with the original vision here; they did incorporate the Dreadknight (eww), but not the sorcery and daemony bits.