Braddoc said:

Uhhh, no I'm not, and I have absolutely no idea how you would have come to that conclusion from my post.

What I was trying to say is that having a Common quality item is not a liability, it's not "moving the problem around instead of fixing it" because Good Quality items are nowhere near universal at chargen. And specially when such item is the very best set of armor available to the Guard. A Common Quality Storm Trooper Carapace is, by definition, of superior quality and craftmanship than a Good Enforcer Carapace by simple virtue of being a superior item, just as even a Poor Quality Astartes Power Armour would be light years more fine and advanced than even Best Quality Storm Trooper Carapace.

Even if they had Common Quality Storm Trooper Carapace and even a Common Quality Hellgun, the Storm Trooper would still be carrying the best equipment available.

Remember that the ST you play when you create your character is not an elite ST, veteran of dozens of campaigns, but a fresh recruit (with a training way better than other grunts, but still not a veteran). So I think a hot shot lasgun or a carapace armor is already a sign of trust and prestige from the Imperium, the character still have to prove his worth to deserve better craftsmanship items.

JuankiMan said:

So you would rather have, let's say, a rusty, broken, leaking BMW than a pristine condition Madza Protégé only becasue hey, it's a BMW: the fact that it cost me a pint of oil for 5 miles driven is small beans comparted to the fact that you have a (crappy and almost good for the scrap) BMW. Ok, enjoy your bucket o' bolts, I'll drive with my pristine Protégé, having no problems what-so-ever with it.

We can always talk about how a set of carapace is better than another set of carapace, because one is 'light' version of the first?

The QUALITY of an item add the to the looks but also the CRAFTMANSHIP taken to produce said item. Saying a common quality item is better purely because it just so happens to be lower on the chart or of great availability sounds like flawed logic to me.

And as for Veterancy: my player rolled "Jaded" as demeanour for his Storm Trooper; and it says the character is jaded from seeing oh-so-much battles and war and such. doesn't sound like a green recrui's experience to me, like the 'Old'describes that the character saw much warfare in his time..no green recruit there; All about the history you make for the char, not what the XP amount. If you want to limit your char's history because of XP or whatever, fine by me. YMMV I suppose.

Braddoc said:

The comparison is flawed. Common Craftmanship does not equal defective. I would indeed pick a second-hand BMW if it is in good condition over the pristine Protégé, because even if the latter is brand new and shiny, the former has nothing wrong with it and is inarguably a superior car (at least I assume, the only thing I know about cars is that they have four wheels and go "vroom", but German engineering is renowed for quality).

And yes, Storm Trooper Carapace is inarguably superior to Enforcer Carapace because both weight exactly the same yet one offers 20% more protection than the other. Even Good Enforcer Carapace is inferior, because even though it can equal is bigger bother's level of protection, it doesn't do it as reliably. Given the equal weight, Storm Trooper either employs better materials in its construction or has the armoured plates more intelligently interlocked, but whatever the case, it is just plain better, no matter how pretty or adorned the other seems to be.

Braddoc said:

If your player wants to play a jaded ST then fine if everyone is okay with it, having fun is the #1 rule in that case. But the demeanour doesn't change the character, if you take an "incompetent" operator then he's not gonna have -10 to all tech-use test. I could have say "yeah but the ST player in our team took green as demeanour so all ST should be green."

And the ST new players not being elite ST as in the fluff is due to balance, If you stick to fluff or TT profiles, then the grunt guardman could complain because ogryns or ST are far better (and 300 more xp wouldn't change it that much). So even if it seems strange because normally a X should be Y, it is better so that every one as an equal (but different) character.

Oh, and i wouldn't like the idea of creating a characters that is already the elite of the elite that can only improve a bit because he has already progressed a lot before you played him.

The Ogryns and the ST are already better than the grunt guardsman at face value, but when you dig deeper, you see that everyone is better than everyone else in their niche skills/talents.

Skills/talents that was stolen from the ST to make him a well armed/equipped poor man's Weapon Specialist who can only shoot.

Braddoc said:

You keep repeating that bolded part. You are wrong.

You keep looking at the stuff that Storm Trooper gets for cheap, and ignore the stuff he gets for medium cost. Except the medium cost is not a baseline the way it was in BC or (sort of) in earlier systems. Having one aptitude in something denotes a dedicated specialist. Having two matching aptitudes denotes an absolute expert who effortlessly masters all intricacies of the chosen field.

A Storm Trooper is as good as possible in shooting - this is nothing if not fitting for a guy whose main distinctive feature is being issued and trained in the use of a very expensive, elite gun.

A ST is also unusually good in all other forms of combat, seeing as he gets all physical Characteristics and combat-related Skills and Talents at either cheap or medium cost.

All in all, he's an expert marksman who can easily adapt for and excel in all forms of combat. That's on top of him being pretty stealthy and having the second highest starting wounds number right after the Ogryn.

Never played BC, so can't talk about that;

Again, I just used the cheapest talents, so with 2 Aptitudes, so therefore absolute expert if I got it right. This is where my "can only shoot" angle comes from. I just want to show that the change from WS to finesse made the Storm Trooper extremely similar to the Weapon Specialist, just lacking the social Aptitudes and have more combat related ones instead.

But I admit, the more I think about it, having knowledge would make him something else.

Whereas keeping the WS aptitude would make the ST a worse shot than the Weapon Spec, but a melee fighter comparable with the Ogryn.

Which, again, makes no sense. ST's combat doctrine is predicated on having these really awesome guns that can puncture Astartes power armor like it's nothing. Obviously, the major part of this elite training of theirs will go towards making them as good at using these guns as realistically possible.

Of course the Storm Trooper has an overlap with the weapon specialist, both are first and foremost guys given a ranged weapon and expected to make good use of it. The difference is in their secondary set of skills, where the Weapon Spec is something of an all-rounder, fit for combat as well as life in the trenches, while the Storm Trooper is a well honed war machine.

And regarding the quality of the ST equipment, his gear is already an entire tier more powerful (and more hi-tech) than what the average guardsman gets.

Again, you weaken the Storm Trooper because of his primo gear. I can see the weapon spec relying on his gear, but the ST ought to be quite capable WITHOUT them rather than being like I said, a powerful gun held by top armour.

Braddoc said:

My Storm Trooper used his 300 starter XP to pick Unarmed Warrior so he would be able to brutalize people with or without weapons, and with it plus Takedown and his WS of 36 I wager I could bring down an Ogryn in a fistfight with a mite of luck. Not being specialized does not mean being incapable, and weakening melee while strengthening ranged is a zero sum operation. The Storm Trooper isn't left any weaker for it, just shifts his focus around.

Regarding Carapace quality, it's simple, IMO: The item called Stormtrooper Carapace is the armour that's usually handed out to Stormtroopers . The Common quality is the one that is commonly available to them. It says nothing about the absolute quality of the item, only about its quality compared to the majority of the same kind of item. As JuankiMan said: A Poor Quality Astartes PA is still higher in tech-level and artisanship than Best Quality Guardsman Flak by far.

Ok, so the ST is the peak human specimen right? So give him 8 aptitudes; he's the best of the ebst, all natural, instead of bieng wired with cog mahcines (à la tech-Priest)

Weapon skill

Ballistic skill

Agility

Finesse

Toughness

Offense

Willpower

Knowledge.

That ough to please every one AND make the Storm Trooper an actual top human rather than just another grunt with primo gear.

And I guess the standard kit MUST have the guard flak armour. I mean why start with a flak vest; even operator are guardsmen! Therefore, everyone MUST have Guard Flak Armour. like Grenades can only be used by grenadiers. it's not "Guardsmen standar issue explosive thrownable device" after all!

Braddoc said:

First, I think Tech-Priests shouldn't have so many Aptitudes to begin with, so I disagree with giving anyone else so many since I think it puts them at an unfair advantage over the rest of the group. Second, removing Fieldcraft makes StormTroopers less self-sufficient and capable on the field, which is more of a commando thing than bludgeoning people silly with a mace. Third, I agree that Storm Troopers should have Willpower added IF everyone had their number of Aptitudes raised/lowered to 7, but Knowledge? Why the hell would they need or justify having knowledge? In the Schola they were taught tactics, combat, the arts of war not science or philosophy. And third, Guard Flak is the typical armour of the Guard, and thus all guardsmen deployed on the frontlines are supplied with it, but inside a tank or within a recon unit it would be a liability, so those units don't wear it. And you got it the other way around: the name Grenadier means they're expected to use grenades, not that grenades are exclusive of them. The last time the latter was true was during the Napoleonic Wars, when grenades weren't widespread and weighed a ton so you needed specially trained soldiers to use them. Similarly Storm Trooper Carapace is expected of Storm Troopers, but nothing stops a Guardsman of requisitioning and wearing one (bar the thice-cursed Munitorum, that is).

Oops, forgot to add fieldcraft to the list, my bad!

knowledge yes; they are top trianed soldiers; don'T tell me they only learn very basic tactics (they *do* start with tactica imperialis) and nothing else? Like to use your own initiative, out think and out smart an opponent is not for them to do? Depsite being dropped beind the lines and are basically alone and on their own? Or is it reserved for Sentinel pilots only?

And that whole "Grenadiers can only uses grenades" bit was to point out the flawed logic of an item having a certain name is bound to be part of a certain's specialty because of a name tagged to it. As for guark flak in a tank, who knows the space there is really inside in a game where mesures are not given?

Ok, we get it. You are a hard-core Storm Trooper fan boy. You have Storm Trooper wallpaper, lunchboxes and a mobile hanging over your bed.

And it's kind of refreshing to see something besides Space Marine fanboyism, honestly.

But really, how many pages/threads of fan-wankery do you need? Storm Troopers are not going to be sneakier than a Ratling, buffer than an Ogryn and more learned than an Enginseer. Get over it.

Man, someone didn't like my sarcastic remark a couple of pages back hm? And it ain't fanboy ishm or wahtever its called: just that the elite of the elite, the best of the best, the top non-genetically modified human soldier are simply well equipped guardsmen rather than one man assault squads as described.

THAT'S my problem.

Odd that no one points out the number of threads taken over by the lasgun setting people; now we got a lasbolter, and no one seems to care?

Really? With armies armed with those, I question the utility of Space Marines. That or Guard command is more imcompetent than first envisionned and no one seems willing to replace them with better tactical minds, possibly to continue the status quo with the Marines. Auto fire would have suffice to make the lasgun intresting whtout making it a do all, be all weapon super weapon.

Braddoc said:

Lol. Just lol. Try and tackle a Space Marine with that all-powerful "lasbolter" and tell me how it goes. Then maybe you will see the usefulness of the Astartes.

Also, the Storm Trooper you seem to have in mind is the one presented in Dark Heresy, but that was a 13.000XP character. It would kind of screw up party balance to put that kinda guy together with freshly minted guardsmen. so instead you get a fresh schola graduate. Well trained and superbly outfitted but lacking the years of battlefield experience that make regular Storm Troopers as deadly.

Braddoc said:

I'm not quite sure what's the point of continuing to discuss this:

• Storm Troopers, old and new > Average Guardsman
• Squad of Storm Troopers > Squad of Guardsmen
• Storm Troopers, old and new ~= Average Player Character
• Lasgun < Bolter
• Overchaged Lasgun < Bolter
• Space Marines > Storm Trooper

It's the fact that you have dozens of 10 men squads armed with that lasbolter who will surely fire at the same time; a Barrage of 1d210+5 Pen2 shot will ruin anyone's day. The Astartes will simply hold on longer (even they cannot shoot a whole company of guardsmen with a single magazine or without taking damage.)

In case of the players, it can be anything from a guy or two to X amount of people shooting this at the same time.

Or was that to please the "We want a human sniper" crowd? A single shot at 1d10+5 pen2 makes for a decent sniper's weapon after all without being accurate.

JuankiMan said:

Right, and explain to me again putting marines with normal humans in BC was unbalanced and horrible? Those marines were FAR from being new battle brothers, and while I do not stalk the BC forums, 'pretty sure there's no "OMG!!!! MARINES ARE OVERPOWER IT MAKES FOR AN UNBLALANCED GAME." comments all over the place.

He's an elite trooper: of course he's stronger and more powerful than your average guardsman. If not only by gear and equipment, but by training and mentality.

Perhaps the chaos champion ought to have Flak armour rather that power armour, y'know to balance things out with the Renegade..

JuankiMan said:

Oh sure- tackle a marine with that lasbolter- Only if a marine takes down a Mars Battlecruiser, y'know the thing they might never get to fight in their whole career. Not to mention (again) that there is a chapter of 100 marines facing a Regiment of THOUSANDS (if not Tens of Thousands) of guardsmen all armed with that lasbotler. Even with their destruction, 100 bolters cannot match the sheer firing rate of thousands of lasguns.

Braddoc said:

While no guardsman is a match for a marine, on a per cost basis the IG is far more efficient that the Space Marines. The trouble is that there are things marines can do which the IG simply cannot.

Face Orcs in melee for more than 10 seconds.

Clear genestealers from a space hulk.

Deal with tyrannids or chaos or dark eldar or anything with significant fear powers. Guardsmen are mere mortals in a hostile universe that largely thinks of them as appetizers and they know it. They have low morale and can break. And they do; this is not a factor in the RPG (beyond fear and pinning rules) because taking control of someones character away in an RPG sucks. In the larger universe? Why do you think IG units have priests and commisars?

Space Marines are like modern strike aircraft. A great way to deal with high value threats but essentially useless for actually controlling territory. An entire 1,000 strong space marine chapter would be essentially useless for, say, holding a territory like Afghanistan which requires boots on the ground across a vast and complex landscape.

So what? Marines and IG do different jobs. Having lasguns suck slightly less changes none of that.

Andor said:

They can actually, that's why there's a Regiment of Gaurdsmen rather than a tactical Squad.

Clear genestealers from a space hulk. Andor said:

Again send in more men if you absolutely need something in the Hulk; Or send Acolytes they're gun-ho and somewhat expendable.

Andor said:

You seems to think Guardsmen are just feudal worlders hicks who were clubbed behind the head and woke up on a transport ship, bound for a war world and their training is limited to "Obey orders, Point the lasgun at a target, pull trigger, repeat." I'm not saying there's no Regiment made of those, (conscript) but I would sya a majority of the Guardsmen are already trained and elite PDF soldiers taken for the tithe. So they are not all weak willed cowards, some are actually experienced troops with PDF-related combat experience (pirates, xeno raids, invasion, local uprising). Not to mention there's a few Regimetns facing Tyranids right now. The Cadians fight Chaos all the **** time too. Or are those the exception to the mass of dumb guardsmen that somehow can hold the line for 10K years by almost pure luck?

Braddoc said:

A regiment of Guardsmen attracts a Warband of orks, and if they get to melee they get brutalized.

There were rules printed in the White Dwarf for playing Space Hulk with guardsmen instead of Space Marine Terminators. Remember Aliens 2? Make it 10 times worse and add in the fun factor than any surviving trooper you loose track of for a few seconds could become an almost undetectable double agent.

99.999% or the Imperial Guard in the galaxy are conscripts. There are very few worlds with a professional army because there would be no way in hell you could fill the quota of soldiers needed to not be overrun otherwise. Training levels can vary, but very, VERY few soldiers joined the Guard on their own free will. And if a horde of Daemons closes in on your position, their unholy presence clawing at you mind, or a Hive Tyrant decides to double-check how you look on the inside or you see metallic skeletons inexorably approaching who just refuse to die, it is not a matter of weak will. Most people will crap their pants. As Andor said, that's why the Imperial Guard has priests and why the Comissariat is so brutal. For the Guard, both in the flufff and in the TT, morale is their weakest link.

Now, "lasbolter" vs. marine: at 1d10+5 Pen2, a M36 Lasgun would need a roll of 10 to inflict a single wound on an average Space Marine (TB8, AP 8), and that's assuming he hits on the head or extremities since the breastplate is completely impervious. On the other hand, and Astartes Boltgun does 1d10+9 Pen5 with Tearing, which will instantly vaporize the standard Guardsman 91% of the time. Forgive me if I'm not impressed.

Who said I was impressed by the lasbolter? I find it a farce.

Never gotten White Dwarf, as most here, so that doens't work.

Few worlds with a professional army? You DO know that each and every world (or well, planetary gouverneur) is required to maintian a Planetary Defence Force (PDF) as per their contract with the Imperium? I see hardly how a hive world with billions rely thier defence to weak willied conscript with barely enough training to fight against invaders, or even calm riots with gangers (who are already fighitng and killing a plenty)

EDIT: 'Guess nothing changed then, what a waste in the end. Even got lasbolter to every wepaon we got.

Braddoc said:

You were the one who called it a "do all, be all superweapon" that makes you question the utility of Space Marines.

I don't care wether you read the article or not. You missed the point completely that sending regular humans to tackle genestealers is like sending colonial marines to tackle xenomorphs. They've tried that for three movies in a row and always ends up being a total disaster, and xenomorphs don't have the ability to instantly brainwash people with a single kiss or brush off assault rifle fire.

And yes, almost all planets keep a standing PDF and/or partly pay their tithe in armed men, but almost none of them ask said armed men what's their opinion on the matter. That's the definition of a conscript, some average Joe between a certain age who gets pulled out of his home and forced to join the army. As I said, training varies from planet to planet. Some, like Cadia train their soldiers extensively while others give them their guns and uniform, a couple of weeks of training and call it a day, but the common ground of most of them is that they didn't choose to be there, and save for the truly motivated ones, most would rather be somewhere else if given the choice.

And please don't compare gang riots to a Tyranid invasion. It is unfair on the poor Tyranids.