So I do not agree with replacing WS for Finesse for the Storm Trooper. Why you ask? My, only because we already got a shooting specialty, called the Weapon Specialist.

So I checked my book out, and wrote down every characteristics, skill and Talents both the Weap. Spec and the ST (new and old) has with 2 Aptitudes (therefore, cheapest buys)

Weapon Specialist (2/3/30)
Ballistic Skill, Agility
Acrobatics, Operate, Stealth

Ambidextrous, Catfall, Deadeye Shot, Leap Up, Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Weapon Training, Crack Shot, Crippling Strike, Hip Shooting, Hotshot Pilot, Independent Targeting, Marksman, Precise Blow, Rapid Reaction, Sharpshooter, Swift Attack, 2xTwo-weapon Wielder (Both of them), Whirlwind of death, Arms Master, Assassin Strike, Blademaster, Blade Dancer, Gunslinger, Lightning Attack, Sidearm, Sprint, Target Selection.

Old Storm trooper (1/3/22)
Weapon Skill
Acrobatics, Operate, Stealth

Ambidextrous, Catfall, Double Team, Leap Up, Lightning Reflexes, Rapid Reload, Street Fighting, Takedown, Furious Assault, Hotshot Pilot, Killing Strike, Rapid Reaction, Storm of Iron, Arms Master, Assassin Strike, Crushing Blow, Eye of Vengeance, Lasgun Barrage, Mighty Shot, Preternatural Speed, Sidearm, Sprint.

New Storm trooper (2/3/25)
Ballistic skill, Agility
Acrobatics, Operate, Stealth

Catfall, Deadeye shot, Double Team, Leap Up, Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Weapon Training, Crack Shot, Crippling Strike, Hip Shooting, Hotshot Pilot, Independent Targeting, Marksman, Rapid Reaction, Sharpshooter, Storm of Iron, Two Weapon wielder (Ballistic only), Eye of Vengeance, Gunslinger, Lasgun barrage, Mighty Shot, Preternatural Speed, Sprint, Target Selection,

Ok, block o' words here, now to list what the Old ST and the Weapon Spec had in common..

Ambidextrous, Catfall, Leap Up, Lightning Reflexes, Rapid Reload, Hotshot Pilot, Rapid Reaction, Arms Master, Assassin Strike, Sidearm, Sprint.

11 Talents are similar (costing the least), leaving at least that amount as 'niche' ST talents.

Now, for the Weapon Spec against the New Storm Trooper.

Catfall, Deadeye shot, Lead Up, Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Weapon Training, Crack Shot, Crippling Strike, Hip Shooting, Hotshot Pilot, Independent Targeting, Marksman, Rapid Reaction, Sharpshooter, Two Weapon wielder (Ballistic only), Gunslinger, Sprint, Target Selection.

19 Talents are similar, leaving the ST with 6 'unique' Talents…..talents that are there because of the Offense Aptitude.

Switching to Finesse compared to WS does make a well shootier Storm Trooper, but due to good quality superior gear and weapons, he will simply overshadow the Weapon specialist. Elite troops used to spearhead assaults and strike behind enemy lines should be more able to both at ranged and up close and personal, being a good opponent without being a combat monster in either.

I believe the previous ST, with the WS Aptitude, showed that well, being able to hold out on its own at ranged (without pushing the Weap. Spec on the sideline) and can be solid in melee as well (without eclipsing the Ogryn) The Perfect Jack-of-all Trades. So I ask, bring back WS instead of finesse.

I would also point out that the Storm trooper has 6 aptitudes, compared to the other support Specialist that have 7 (or 8 for the Tech-Priest). The Psyker got 6 as well, i figured he had a sheltered upbringing being trained on Terra; the Ogreyn is simply, dumb. Adding another Aptitude would make him on the level as the Commissar, (who is also Scola Trained). Perhaps Adding finesse (or knowledge, as it is half the battle, and Storm troopers aren't no die-by-the-boatload guardsmen) to thier aptitude list might help them making them more an of elite support choice, without making them scab another specialist's role.

I think you are wrong in assuming that the Storm Trooper is supposed to be a Combat Jack-of-all-Trades. I feel like that's something that the Weapon Specialist should be, after all he's the guy that always has the right tool for the job (or at least he has a Comrade advance that allows him just that) whereas the Storm Trooper should be the shooting specialist.

By only looking at the talents with two matching apptitudes you may also be limiting yourself a bit when comparing the two. Personally I'm not quite sure how I want those two specialications to be in the end but for now it feels like the Storm Trooper should be very specialized and killy whereas the Weapon Specialist should be an allrounder when it comes to shooting being able to deal with Infrantry, Heavy Infrantry, Vehicles, Buildings and whatever he faces whereas the Storm Trooper is an expert in fightig Infrantry and Heavy Infranry (since a Hellgun will hardly scratch must Vehicles).

You should also look at Comrades, simply the fact that the Storm Trooper has none changes the situation. Having a Comrade allows for a variety of effects even with the rather limited selection of Orders and Comrade advances in the Core Rules. Not only does a Comrade grant you versatility wether you are shooting or fighting in melee, they also act as a 2-hit-deflector shield granting you a ~10% chance of not taking any hit.

Yeah, the Stormtrooper's "take the hit for comrades" ability is kinda bad when he's not really that much tougher. Mentor is pretty nice, though. It would be handier if he instead made the comrades a little tougher somehow, or had some sort of bonus to his resilience when taking the hit for redshirt in that way.

In the storm-trooper description it says 'one-man assault squad'. Yes, the weapon spec is a jack-of-all-trades when it comes to shooting, but then again, the same could be said of the heavy, and frankly, all the meltaguns in the Jericho Reach aren't going to help the WepSpec against a horde of blade-wielding chaos crazies, and there isn't always going to be a friendly ogryn around to lay on the beats.

Storm troopers are called the glory boys, because while the rest of the guard are holding the lines, they're the ones who strike fast behind the enemy bulwark, and deliver the blow that turns the tide of the battle. They need to be good all rounders because they have to face a wide variety of different situations, including stealth, which is essential when working in enemy territory, and is supplemented by the ability to silently take down an enemy sentry in close quarters, with a knife to the throat.

My thoughts for storm trooper aptitudes:

Weapon Skill - Storm troopers should be just as good in melee as at range.

Ballistic Skill - Naturally, any good spec ops should be handy with a gun.

Offense - Storm troopers ought to be best utilised in attack.

Defense - Instead of toughness, stormtroopers should take a more tactical, trained approach to staying alive.

Strength - Reflects the intense physical training at the Schola and gives them the ability to navigate harsh terrain by climbing or swimming.

Agility - Same as above.

Fieldcraft - Allows the trooper to operate independently, and also aids in weapon training.

Finesse - Reflects the stromtrooper's superior skill, planning, strategy and cunning.

I realise that this gives stormtroopers 8 aptitudes, which is more than any other spec, but since they're supposed to be the best of the best, it seems right to me. Plus, the specs with 6 aptitudes tend to have the rarer, or more powerful ones, such as tech. The selection above reflects an individual who has been shaped into an emotionless killing machine with little capacity for anything else, such as knowledge, tech, or social skills.

Also, on the subject of switching toughness for defense, this opens up talents like unshakeable faith, jaded, and nerves of steel to the stormtrooper, which really, seems right in my opinion, given their training plus the high pressure situations they have to deal with.

Thaddux said:

Why? I've never understood this.

The Stormtroopers are equiped with heavy backpacks and a weapon that can vaporize heavy infrantry (without Unnatural Toughness) quite easily. Why would they be trained in melee combat when most of the imperial combat doctrines rely upon throwing so much Lasgun fire at the enemy that they never reach melee range?

I'm not very familiar with the IG Fluff outside of the FFG RPGs and what I picked up from DoW and the Lexicanum but nothing I've seen indicated that Storm Troopers would ever try to engage an enemy in melee combat unless they are out of ammo (which shouldn't happen with how the fluff descibes thei ammo packpack). Yeah they are dropped into the midst of battle but even in a stylised universe such as 40k being droped close to enemies position would refer to a few hundret meters and not just droping them right into melee range (unless you're talking about space marines or terminators).

Musclewizard said:

Read the guardsman advances from the Dark Heresy corebook. The path that brings it up to stormtrooper talks a lot about getting up close and messy with the enemy, and includes advances such as blademaster, frenzy, furious assault, lightning attack and berzerk charge. In DoW2: Retribution, certain advances did actually make the stormtroopers better at melee by adding a supression effect to their melee strikes. Finally, the lexicanum tends to represent knowledge gleaned from TT rather than lore, although, even there there's a picture of a kasrkin stormtrooper sergeant holding a sword, as well as his gun.

Storm Troopers are the special forces of the imperial guard, trained from childhood to eliminate the enemy with extreme prejudice, to kill anything, with anything.

From a gaming point of view it makes even more sense. The entire selection of specialities is geared almost exclusively towards shooting, with the obvious exception of the Ogryn, (and possibly the priest and commissar although they are primarily fellowship oriented) and even they have the ballistic skill aptitude , yet no-one has complained about this. Want to bring up the fact that psykers have the strength aptitude? Why are heavy gunners so friendly?

Thaddux said:

I don't think one badly designed (or more likely badly named) advance should be used to justify another.
As a side note: In DH a conscript can become a Storm Trooper. I think we can all see that this is not how 40k works and the naming of ranks isn't telling you anything about what a characters position in the world is. Just because an Aribtrator kills some Heretics for the Inquisition doesn't magically get him promoted to Lord Marshal, at best he's at that point about as experienced as a Lord Marshal would be.

While Storm Troopers in DoW 2 may have had some ability when it comes to melee combat they were geared only towards ranged combat in all of their weapon selection and using them for anything but ranged combat would be gravely misusing the unit.
I fully agree that a sufficiently advanced Storm Trooper like one that has been through many battles and in so doing been promoted to Sergeant would pick up a few points in WS and other melee combat related abilities but they can do so without it being part of their primary skills and talents. Sergeants being equiped with pistol and sword is a very typical image in the 40k setting and I don't think those should be used to justify the training and skills of the soldiers they lead.

Once again I fully agree that Storm Troopers are special forces that are trained to kill but even the Imperium is smart enough to understand that most of the Guards enemies are tougher and stronger than they are (with the exception of maybe the Tau and Mutants / Traitor Guard). Spending time on training "rank and file" (i.e. fresh) Storm Troopers in a fighting style they'll never get to use if they do their job right is an absolute waste.

I'm not sure what brining up some (questionable) aptitudes of other Specialities does to emphasise the point of close combat storm troopers, I just don't see any justification in the fluff, the mechanics or common sense (that is looking at the fluff but without the silly preconceptions of the IoM)

In OW having double aptitudes implies specialization, the core of the spec. Single aptitudes are areas where the spec is competent, but not their inmediate area of expertise. As they are now, Storm Troopers are trained killers, expert marksmen capable of swiftly and silently moving behind enemy lines and take high value targets at short to medium range. Still, with both Offense and Finesse, Storm Troopers still have access to discounted Strength, WS, and several melee oriented talents. This makes them competent in melee though not specialized in it. Giving them 8 aptitudes is completely ridiculous, as no one would pick anything else.

In the TT Storm Troopers have WS3 and BS4 and a single Attack, and in both DoW and DoW2 Storm Troopers were absolutely awesome at range but crumbled like tissue paper against anything choppier than basic infantry. And incidentally, with the current aptitudes a Storm Trooper could pick Weapon Training (Power) quite cheaply in order to wield that power sword effectively.

I don't believe Storm Troopers are meant to be Jack of All, that's the job of Weapon Specialist. ST are Grenadiers, clad in the best armor and good weapons used as shock troops. I don't think they should be enclined towards melee, get rid of AGI and add in WP. ST are suppose to be made of stunner stuff, and having higher WP would help them overcome the horrors better than say your average weapon specialist.

If anything a storm trooper that engages in melee will either outclass their opponent and take them out quickly or realize they are outclassed and withdraw, regroup, and redeploy.

I think finesse over weapon skill is very appropriate. They aren't specifically trained in melee weapons as a specialization. They have always been primarily ranged. It feels much better that they have the cheapest advancement for things related to shooting compared to being hyper specialized in melee.

Commisars, sergeants, and weapon specialists all feel more appropriate to be specialized in melee combat.

I'm not entirely sure what is the internal logic that decides that the Enginseer should have 8 aptitudes, the Ratling, Priest, Commisar and Sarge deserve 7 and everyone else is stuck with 6. In my opinion, they should normalize all classes to have 7 aptitudes, in which case I would give the ST Willpower rather than Defense or WS. Children of the Schola are supposed to be made of sterner stuff, their faith their armor, their conviction their blade, their Leadership 8 (in earlier editions at least) but I wouldn't change it for Agility. They need that in order to perform as commando units and deep striking infiltrators. Interestingly enough, as I crunched this data I realized that, as of now, the Storm Trooper is the only class in the game with three secondary aptitudes (aptitudes that do not share name with an attribute).

As a side note, what aptitudes do you people think the low aptitude classes should get if the system was normalized?

My two cents are:

Heavy: Strength. To lug their 40kg+ guns around.

Medic: Fellowship. Don't be such a baby. These grow back! (no, they don't)

Operator: Perception. For target acqusition and hazard identification with only ridiculously small slits to look at the outside of their vehicle.

Weapon Specialist: Defense. Hold the line, dammit!

Ogryn: None. Their traits and massive wound count compensate and they don't need anything else to kill people dead. Besides, they're dumb as rocks.

Psyker: Defense. Armored not in body, but in mind. Otherwise they would be Emperor Chow.

Storm Trooper: Willpower. For reasons already explained.

Techpriest: Drop Strength. You have so much junk grafted to your body because the flesh is weak, remember?

Nothing for the Ratling I see.

Caps added to emphasize words, not yelling.

Fine then, since everyone seems the Weap spec as a all-rounder and miss the point I was doing for with their "let's change every thing because TT/novel/whatever said XYZ about ABC" hogging the thread in every direction.

A Storm Trooper is an ELITE SOLDIER. Take any ELITE SOLDIER from any current, modern military, and I am certain that, despite being good at ranged, they are LETHAL IN CLOSE-COMBAT. They TRAIN CONSTANTLY to always be at their TOP PHYSICAL FORM.

An ASSAULT UNIT used to SPEARHEAD ATTACKS, should be good in range yes…but the definition of Assault implies CLOSE-COMBAT IN A FORM OR ANOTHER sooner or later.

And yes; Strom Trooper should be jack of all trades, way more than Weapon spec. Why? They are BEHIND ENEMY LINES, WITHOUT SUPPORT NOR LOGISTIC TRAIN BEHIND THEM. They do get support mind you, jsut that it's 400 kilometers away on another continent, rahter than a couple of hours back to the firebase. They OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE THEMSELVES IN COMBAT. ANY COMBAT. Since back-up is a couple of hours in a Valkyrie from arriving….if there is such a thing as back-up. Should be more like extraction.

Weapon Spec is a jack-of-all-trades because he's the quintessential soldier. They're expected to do anything and everything. Storm Trooper is a Jack-of-all-trades because he works alone and can depend only on him 98% of the time he's in the field. He's expected to do things normal guardsmen cannot, with the help of superior training and gear. With finesse, he is just a Weapon Spec overly specialised in ranged attack who can,t do much in melee (even less than the 'auto-die in melee' front line guardsmen). With WS, he's way closer to that one-man assault squad they write about, rather than being a Weapon Specialist that's good with shooting stuff. They won't hit you multiple times, they'll hit you once, but you're going to feel it bite.

So again, switch back finesse by WS; also, add Knowledge to his aptitudes; that will gain him a few skills (Scolastic Lore, logic, Sleight of hand- all importnat and logical, than an spec ops have some logical deducting than your front line grunt) and some cheaper talents (need to see what, don't got my books here right now). Storm Trooper are added to infantry Squad as a wild card; with finesse, he's just another guy with a powerful gun that can be easely replaced with another Heavy with a heavy bolter or another weapon specialist.

Side-note: I heard about the Sarge being another odd-ball, I'll have to do the same thing with him on the week-end (busy tonight).

@Braddoc

Stormtroopers are not Behind-Enemy-Lines guys - that's a job for someone without the heaviest possible armour and a gun whose ammo supply takes up most of your backpack.

Stormtroopers, as they are known to other guardsmen, are generally what's described in the book as hunter-killers: They are carted to the battlefield by chimera or valkyrie, they do some shooting and hopefully break the enemy's back, they return to base to resupply. This behaviour, getting into combat and dealing heavy damage without having to dig trenches or crawl through mud for weeks or being exposed to regular artillery bombardment, is exactly what gets them the resentment of the rest of the guard and their nicknames as toy-soldiers and glory-hounds.

Light carapace's only 4 kg more than guard flak.

So tell me, who in the imperial guard is qualified, trained and armed to work behind enemy lines?

The mass of guardsmen that think they can kill orks with a quick bayoneet to the head?

Or perhaps those who believe genestealers are slow and clumsy?

Or again, those who know eldar wepaonry to be inferior to his superior made lasgun and flak armour?

Perhaps a single type of troops fomr a single type of world?

No, that would be the Storm Trooper.

Braddoc said:

Let's first define some terms:
Long ranged Combat…Across a field, from some sort of elevated position or similar vantage point like a tower down range
Ranged Combat…From one House to another, across a large street or down a short field
Close Quaters Combat…anything in a closed environment like a House or maybe an Aircraft Hangar
Melee Combat…Chainsword and Bayonetts.

I think it's quite obvious that Storm Troopers usually engage in Ranged Combat and Close Quaters combat. This can be seen both from their Weapon's range (limiting them in long ranged combat compared to a sniper) and the fact that they don't carry Chainsword or even Bayonetts. Furthermore that backpack and a rifle that is linked to said backpack limits what they can do if someone engages them with a Sword.
I fully agree that the Storm Trooper is an elite soldier. They do perform a variety of tasks including spearheading assaults and attack from behind enemy lines. This does not mean that they are trained in melee combat. They are probably trained in close quaters combat the same way that a modern soldier would probably learn how to wield an assault rifle while in a cramped environment such as a family home or a bunker. This does not mean that they (both Storm Troopers and modern elite soldiers) learn how to wield a sword or an axe.
I'm not a military man but I'm quite sure that Spec-Ops and similar infiltrator types would rather shoot someone with a silenced rifle from dozens of meters away instead of sneaking in for a kill with a knife like one might see it in Call of Duty or Battlefield.
In fact I doubt that any Imperial Soldier except for Ogryns, Priests or those spured on to religios fanaticism, Soldier out of ammo or those forced to by a Comissar would ever willingly charge into melee combat simply because even humans at top physical ability are weaker and slower than their enemies when it comes to melee combat.

I finally got to see OW Beta and I am kinda confussed by ST comrade advances. I think that I would use them for new Guardsman archeotype Bodyguard or Batman or such.

As for Stom Trooper how about applying traits from his Ascension namesake for his comrade advances? Field Command : make a command check and comrade gets +2 Initiative and re-roll on BS (altough I have not yet read how the comrades work to be honest), Drop Tooper: autopass on grav-chute insertion tests and +10 for piloting Valkyre Recon : give comrades and himself +10 on Stealth and +2 Initiative bonus

They would need some heavy tweaking but it seems more right for Stormie to be specops guy, rather than glorified bodyguard.

TorogTarkdacil812 said:

Comrades don't roll, like at all. They act on the initiative of the player whos Comrade they are and they don't make attack rolls either. Not so sure about the other stuff. I really like the idea that the Storm Trooper can pass on his knowledge to his allies which feels very aproporiate for an elite soldier which should have some areas where he stands out. Making him specialize in piloting a Valkyre seems silly since there's no Valkyries in the book as of now (and I gues we'll only see them in a supplement). Grav-Chutes are equally problematic since they'll be used at best once per mission so he'll hardly have any use for that ability / skill / advance.

Dang, I need to study comrades more closely. Still I would like to have Stormtrooper advances more along these lines than what is there now (both Mentor and Protector scream I AM MOTHERFRAKKIN JARRAN KELL to me), but alas houseruling has killed very few people so far, as I doubt there would be so massive changes.

The Strom Trooper have no comrades; he can either 'loan out' his skills to the other squad members (which is intresting), or take damage instead of comrade (which is silly- take rolled damage for NPC comrades who themselves can no longer run- can only protect those who are about to die, meaing they are woudned and cannot run)

As for WS; Weapon skill is not limited by how to swing a sword and stab with a knife; it is your capacity in melee; with knives and swords true, but kicks, fists, grapple, throws and the like; and don't tell me mordern armies, especially elite units, are not trained in hand-to-hand combat. And the elite untis are generally well trained into hand-to-hand combat, taking down someone with no wepaons, in silence..like a sentry right before the raid begins. Hard to be silent when hot-shots lasguns cannot be silenced, or even regular lasguns for that matter (yes longlas got a buffer of sorts- but that's the long las, not the lasgun/hot-shot), so you'd better fall bakc to the good ol, fashionned "Silent apporach, knife between the ribs" technique to secure the element of surprise.

Stormtroopers get some training: they're at single aptitude for a lot of the melee stuff, rather than double like the ones really focused [and who actually get equipped with] chainswords and whatnot.

But its not what they're intended for. They're made for hitting fortified positions, often after having trained for that specific assault beforehand [plans, blueprints, mock assault wargames and so on] when possible. Fast assault on a fortified position, breaking a reinforced line.

When stormtroopers hit, its not the quiet commando stuff, although the Rapport of a Lasgun is at the point of impact when the pulses ignite ablated materials. There's no explosion at the muzzle after all.

And even when it is supposed to be that quiet, what training they CAN get with their aptitudes still allows them to be far superior in melee to those soldiers they will silence. Still, they're not expert duelists. Things shot dead with hellguns don't need to be stabbed, and that's their primary equipment.

They could use a little boost in the comrade-replacement-ability department and the hellgun backpacks are far too heavy for what little ammunition they can carry, but their aptitudes are pretty good now.

anyone even looked at the cheapest WS related buys the ST have access to? Look at how he gets a few talents that boost his damage by half WSA, attacks can't be dodge, more crit damage…you don't see lightning attack or swift attack; I'm not saying make the ST the WS expert in the specialty, long melee battle sare for the guardsmen; I'm saying that WS gives them access to a few potent WS related taletns, that will strengthen the idea of quick, killing strikes rather than numerous bayonnet trust like the Weapon spec has with swift/lightnight attack.

It's not the quantity of blows delivered, it's the quality of the blow that counts for the Storm Trooper

That's not Storm Troopers in 40k dude, that's assasins. Temple assasins, moritat, vindicare. We already have plenty of space ninjas. No need to go cramming that into another archetype.

Yes, Stormtroopers will probably beat up regular joes in a bar fight, but they are not lethal close combat death machines in TT or fluff or this RPG. That equates to one aptitude, which they get. It does not mean two, that's for dedicated melee guys like Ogryn and Commisars. They are not modern special forces either.

And that's just plain sensible. Most of the foes of mankind are simply too strong, tough or fast for anything remotely human to beat in close combat. Fighting Orcs in hand to hand is like Mike Tyson vs Stephen Hawkings. Marines get their asses handed to them in close combat by Orcs and they are 8 foot tall supermen. And Orcs are one of the most common foes of the imperial guard.

You don't train to deal with tigers by studying tiger-style kung fu. You get a gun and you learn to shoot it. That's what Storm troopers do.

Actually i would argue that storm troopers are pretty much the parallel of modern day special forces. Still they are not melee specialists.

Never said they ought to be the melee Specialist; but they ought to be able to handle themselves well in melee, equally if not better than Weapon Specialist.

Braddoc said:

Why? A weapon specialists are jack of all, they're veterans of the guard they should be able toss it up in melee better than Storm Troopers, because he doesn't have a hell gun/hotshot weapon. A ST should know basics in melee, but they're not front-lines men. Storm Troopers are more Shock Troops, they rush the enemies weak point using their superior arms and gear to do the job. Or they attack enemy Armor divisions, putting them out of commission with Krak Gernades. They get a hot-shot pistol for melee.