Herr Arnulfe said:

I've just cut a whole load of text in response, that I spent an hour and a half writing… and then suddenly realised that I don't really care anymore whether the game officially lives or dies. As long as the fans stay active, that's all the matters.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

Amen to that brotha!

Hi folks,

I suspect that WFRP is now firmly on the back burner. If you look at what Pathfinder produce and their release schedule, WFRP looks dead in comparison. I'm afraid it will have to be the fans who will keep WFRP going, unless GW decide to take it in-house again permanently. Unless the Enemy Within turns out to be a stunning and profitable success, I am expecting the gas to be turned off completely.

I hate to be negative but other companies interact with their customers. Just look at the Superstar Era competition at Paizo who produce Pathfinder. Fear is an excuse not a justification.

Daedalum said:

What what what? Am I know one of three people who play wfrp3 in Australia. The community grows!

Fenderstat said:

Yep you can check out Universal Head's blog here : http://www.headlesshollow.com/wfrp/

The gags about the dwarf"s costume in the latest post were hilarious.

BTW Fenderstat, if I ever get over this constant cycle of flues and my 4 month old settles into a good sleeping patern, I'll be signing p to the ol' world league myself

FFG team meeting

FFG Boss: Alright guys we've got all these products to roll out to our fans. Check it out, there's a new IG supplement. Plus More Space Marines and the like. People love space marines right? that's what sells.

FFG Staff: Uhh boss. This is a meeting for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

FFG Boss: *looks around at the only two people on the wfrp3 team and the empty meeting room* Warhammer is sci fi idiots. Geez and you call yourselves experts!

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

The above may or may not have happened.

Doh!!!

jh

..

Sorry Fenderstat, I just moved from Sydney to NZ. The community has shrunk!

UniversalHead said:

I've been a die hard fan of 1st edition, a bit disappointed with 2nd, and then again of 3rd edition.

Reasons doesn't really matter in the debate, but I've recently found myself having a hard time getting in mood to GM the game, and especially clean up the box which is a mess of action cards, etc… which are leftovers from dead characters.

After I bought Heroes Call, I realized it'd never really end, it would just get bigger and bigger, and not in a pretty way, but in a very confusing way.

With 1st/2nd edition, I could select which books to bring, and then which book to use when we played. In 3rd edition I carry all the action cards and other nit bitz with me, because selecting which to use every time is simply not doable.

On top of that, 3rd edition gives me more choices constantly, but while this in the beginning meant freedom to me, it's now really frustrating as I have so much to use, that I end up giving up and not using anything apart from the players action cards! When they fight npc's/monsters I make up actions in my head, and basically throw the dice and tell them what happens, basically improvising. So if I improvise, why have all the stuff???

So my big frustration lies in the constant adding of stuff, without any tools added to help me manage it!

Examples would be a list of npc types (soldier, captain, burglar etc…) and a selection of suggested action cards, even if the action cards were in a POD addition it would help!

Basically what I'm missing, is more stuff to download from FFG page, that helps me be better at organizing the bazzilion cards/stuff I bought from them!

Another example would be a 5 page write up, with suggestions on how to link the adventures, and sculpt them in to a full campaign, or suggestions on where in the adventures/campaign to use the location cards (which I've yet not used…).

Anyway, I still like 3rd edition, but my fan-boy status has faded, and I now consider myself a WFRP fan again, disappointed in the latest edition, but not big enough disappointment to actually stop buying it…

Spivo said:

I don't know if it helps you, but after reading your post I said "this is exactly how I feel with 3rd ed". You made a good summary of it.

In Spain we have a saying that reads something like "Everyones problem is fool's comfort" but it makes me feel better knowing that more GMs out there have similar concerns, it gives me a stupid hope that may be someday FFG will fix these things…

On the good side of FFG, there is Daniel Clark, who is always very diligent answering my emails with rule questions.

Hi,

Just wanted to second/third Spivo and Yepesnopes comments.

I totally want a creatures guide with a decent selection of action cards listed with each npc/creature entry. When I run games I use cards for reference rather than face up on the table, thats for the PCs. Afast paced combat is a good combat, and a well constructed creature guide would support that.

TBH other than that, all I really want is an elf box and a supply of adventure/setting material, I still get a kick from the warhammer world.

But hell I've been waiting over 20yrs for an elf box so…..

My main beef is indeed the move away from clearly listing all creatures' actions or potential actions etc.

Though I too would give up even that and take 8 corruption points to get a good elf box.

Organization-wise, it is a challenge. It's lead to me using organizer boxes (thank you Martha Stewart, bet you never guessed they would used for keeping the Nuglists and Khorne crews sorted) and other tricks (treating location cards like busienss cards in a home made rolodex of "outdoor", "in a building", "in community" etc.). I find this works well enough but it is definitely one of those "the player/GM has to figure it out, the game company doesn't" things. Unlike some game companies that manage to cleverly give you the box that is also the sorted filing system for everything in it etc.

That said I'm quite fond of 3rd edition and believe that what I lose on organization time I make up on transcription time if it was all written. My beastman boss is a section in notes for wounds and ACE and a bundle of cards and the "hero template" slide underneath. Keeping the deck of "common NPC's" and "their typical actions" handy also allows on the fly resolution more easily - which I find the system generally supports.

Spivo said:

+1

Or the always fun shuffle-through-all-the-cards players sometimes do when they decide to buy a new action card.
I'm at the point where a list of modifiers sounds like a blessing.
Just a general list like:

Untrained 1H melee attack:
use the Basic Melee Attack card

Trained 1H melee attack:
1 success: action succeeds with damage = characteristic + weapon damage
3 success: +2 damage
2 boons: add +1 fatigue, +1 pierce, …
2 challenge (so rather big fail): add 2 recharge tokens to an active defense.
2 banes: suffer 1 fatigue

And then expert melee-attacks that allow you to modify your dicepool.

That's 3 attack cards, and I bet they replace 70% of all 1H melee cards already.
At least have this for monsters for those of us who will be improvising anyway.

Nisses said:

Great!

A player from my group propossed something similar for all the skills in the game and we have been thinking about it. At the end, in many warhammer 3rd ed tables around the world people end up having similar concerns. Now, that Liber Fanatica IX has been released, showing us again how high in quality fan made material can be, why we just don't go for a Warhammer 3.5 ed?

Spivo said:

So my big frustration lies in the constant adding of stuff, without any tools added to help me manage it! examples would be a list of npc types (soldier, captain, burglar etc…) and a selection of suggested action cards, even if the action cards were in a POD addition it would help! basically what I'm missing, is more stuff to download from FFG page, that helps me be better at organizing the bazzilion cards/stuff I bought from them! Another example would be a 5 page write up, with suggestions on how to link the adventures, and sculpt them in to a full campaign, or suggestions on where in the adventures/campaign to use the location cards (which I've yet not used…).

These would be good articles for the next Liber Fanatica:

/Complete/ Creature action list (a forum member already did this, now we just need to make it a workable, printable list that a GM can stick in his creature guide)

'How to' link the adventures article.

Simplification article. I've played it every which way. When I GM, I always thin out the monster specifics in favor of time. I'm not going to search through a stack of cards when I can just use the Melee Attack card and then make up some effect. "As melee attack plus: chomp chomp on a comet" is good enough for me. Most cards have just modifiers just to have modifiers just to justify cards just to justify sales.

Good to see that someone gets to talk to Daniel. He's non-existent otherwise because of FFGs policy of "don't show your face in the forums except to post an advertisement." I don't blame Daniel, but Jay Little got to participate or chose to participate a good amount more. If he can step up, there would easily be more people ready to play this game.

One extraneous thought: The learning curve of this game has been forgotten by those of us who've been playing forever. All the extra, non-essential elements, do not help a person learn this game. If there was a basic game without all the "extra crap," perhaps there would be a more welcome doorway for players.

jh

Spivo said:

as for character advancement, i catch up with my players outside of a game session over a coffee while they flick through their options. this is the biggest barrier for me. i would love to see a living list of all player cards with a description of their general function. with this the players could shortlist their options.

Emirikol said:

3e is so modular you simply remove the elements you don't want. you're a proponent for dropping the party sheet, keep dropping stuff, drop disease, drop corruption, drop mounts, drop permanent injuries, you can even drop magic and blessings if you want. the great thing about this system is you can drop these subsystems and incorporate them whenever you wish without detriment.

i have a new player and he commented on how easy the game was compared to star wars d20 and d&d 4e (his only other rpg experiences).

I want to nag a bit more, sorry. After my last weekend of Warhammer FRPG I can't stop nagging (I know it is out of frustration but…).

This game, which is a great game, or more accurately, a nearly great game, has some drawbacks in my opinion that arise from its boardgame approach. Some of the drawbacks can be dodge or mended with few effort, others like the creature guide commented here need much more effort, let me comment on the problem I have to face in my games.

I do not know how many people in these forums plays with a large party, let's say 6+ players. I do, 8 in particular, and I have problems that I had never had before with other RPG, because you like it or not, this game it has been clearly thought for 3 - 4 players max. Let me mention a few things:

-For such a big group, the "nice" simplicity of the available skills (there are few but they look well chosen) turns in a "there is not enough differentiation and each character looks like the other" Especially, since the PCs start the game already so skilled and proficient, after as many as 10 - 15 xp PC differentiation in my group has faded. Things like the Wizard being a far better scout than the scout, the priest being a better haggler than the merchant, or the hunter being better at picking locks than the thief are common. Result, for a bigger party is very difficult to have unique characters. They can have unique role plays, but when it turns to game mechanics and rolls, they are not.

-NPC and combats are another drama. Rules such as the concept of "engagement", or the sharing of the dice pool, or the sharing of the action recharge time fell apart when you have to prepare an encounter for 8 PC.

-Action cards (both PC's and NPC's) are not balanced, not at all. What do I have to do? With 8 players in my group many want to buy rapid fire, or double strike, or reckless cleave or winning smile. Shall I say NO to them? or say no to some? -No sorry, you can not buy this action because three other in the party already have it and the game loses its "cinematic" WTF!

-Some (many) talents are like a bug in the game when the party is big.

As I said, some of this problems are easy to solve, others are not; but what annoys me is that I have bought a RPG and I don't want to face problems that I will face if I will play with my 8 friends to a boardgame that in the box says 3 - 4 players. Moreover, I expect it to be play tested, it should be. You make 300 action cards, but 15 are so **** good that the rest are pointless. Do less then!

Better I stop the post here, it is far from being constructive, but of late I feel there is nothing so special in this game appart from its set up (the warhammer world) and its fantastic fan community.

Yes, I always found that one of the more glaring problems with the whole concept of cards - briefly fixed with the hardcover guides, then a problem again with the additions since then. I've had to scan and send PDFs to my players of card updates since the guides so they know what options they have - but there is no fix for the problem of two players wanting the same action, unless you scan and make a new card. The whole thing was a nice idea that wasn't fully thought through.

Another possibility might have been something in the mould of Descent 2nd edition, so the careers would have a small selection of card packs tied to the career. Then you'd have distinctive skills and actions tied to the career choice, no problem with repetition (only in the very rare case where a player followed a career someone else had followed in the past), and less mucking about with too players having to go through 100s of cards - in the guides and in expansions - to make choices.

Some actions could have been repeated for similar careers, but you'd have a set for each career so no problems with not having enough of oft-used cards.

And you could get rid of the complex career progression system, by saying the career was complete when you bought all the cards for your career.

In the same way, you could link distinctive small card packs to each creature, even each NPC. In this way you don't spoil the business-oriented concept of endless expansions, but each expansion is modular and doesn't just add to an ever-growing massive grab-bag of cards. It would have been a much tighter experience all round, thematically and practically.

Wow, more I think about it the more I like this idea - remember you heard it hear first kids!

Yepesnopes said:

I will say, that I fixed a lot of these problems using fortune/challenge dice as bonuses when you do stuff your current or past (completed) careers revolves around. This also affects their results btw.

Example, my group tried to track the cripple from Wind of Change, and the players thought it would be best to use the bright wizard to track him, as he has observation trained and 5 Int, compared to the more natural choice our bountyhunter (1 Observation, 3 Int) who's career is based upon finding people.

Not being your career you will look for the "wrong" clues, so the wizard is looking for tracks from the cripples little wagon, where as the BH might look for where it would be most suited to roll such a wagon through (avoid water-pools etc…). So wizard gets 3 challenge dice for trying to do something that is nuts (look for tracks on cobblestone) and 2 misfortune dice for the area having many tracks (horsecarts etc…). The BH would have gotten 2 challenge dice, but also 2 fortune dice for doing something within his profession.

Wizard failed, but even with success their result would have varied. BH would have gotten knowledge of which people/places the cripple would pass and talk to, etc… wizard would get cold hard facts of where the wagon passed through, with no other valuable info.

I saw the same problem slowly arise, and came with this solution. The wizards high Int is not a universal Int, it's Int to use within his profession. Just like the hunters Ag isn't good for sleight of hand, but good for shooting stuff, or sneaking through rural areas.

But this, I believe, would also make a good downloadable reference sheet, a list of careers, with suggestions for things they do well, and maybe what they don't do well. Grasping at straws maybe…

Anyway, I guess my problem really boils down to zero support from FFG. And yes Fan material can make up for a lot, but FFG production quality is just better than most fan made (most… not all).

Seems like a solution, but this way you're really making it about what the GM decides.

You say his int is not a universal int, but only applicable in his field. It seems to me that is the exact reason why we have skills, to show this.

I'm afraid that problem is by design. If you make it so that everybody can learn everything, they eventually will branch out.

The only way out of that, would be to up the difficulty of their class-checks, in a way motivating them to stick to upgrading their own skills.
Or/And make the cross-class skills more expensive, changing careers more expensive and make the careers take longer to complete.

But if a character has high int, and a high observation, than that means he should be able to pick up visual clues. Otherwise how do you justify which character gets which bonus, after they complete a few careers? They're bound to have had it at some point or other.

What Spivo does is in my opinion completely right, and a sign of a good GM. But again, is what Nisses says, once more, something left to the will and mod of the GM. One more thing to decide on the fly, one more thing to tweak…

I started yesterday with my players to work on a 3.5 version of the game. We aim to reduce action cards in a similar way as Nisses proposed (in the case of NPC to reduce them drastically), we will interchange the role of specializations by those of skills (I mean specialization granitng yellow dice while general skill training granting white dice), and a few more things like career completion, talents, party sheet, action recharging….

We are mainly gathering some of our ideas based on our own game experience and those I found around the forums, like the one of Emirikol group where they allow to repeat a career and be Master "career name".

The idea is to make it 100% compatible with the 3 edition without having to change things like career cards or so, but that is going to be a challenge, but a fun one for me and my group

Good luck with that, if you end up with a document we can read, it'll get much attention as has Emirikols mods.

Interesting how much of the tweaks are about reduction, reduction of action cards, defining set template of stats and actions for creature etc. I think we all enjoy the choice but mid game, when running an unplanned encounter, a stack of 500 jumbled cards isn't a GMs friend.

Yes, it does seem to be the trend…

All in all, the system seems to have been released for low to mid-level characters and small groups, but never tested at large.

Yepesnopes: I'm willing to help out with such a project, but if you're keeping it in your own group, that's perfectly understandable