An idle moment here, so I thought I'd head on over to the WFRP FFG forum and ask: what's happening with WFRP, Fantasy Flight?

There's the Enemy Within 'reimagining' way, way back at the end of the upcoming list in development land, and then there's - well, there's nothing else. Hero's Call was released almost four months ago, and since then we've had one print on demand pack.

I'm beginning to feel a little worried for the future of third edition WFRP, and I can't help but conclude it just isn't get the love over at FFG. How about some announcements of upcoming product? Is Enemy Within going to be the next release? Because if so we probably have a long, long time to wait…

It's a real shame. I'd happily buy more good quality WFRP3 product if it was available, but the game just doesn't seem to be a high priority for FFG anymore.

I hope I'm wrong, but things sure are quiet …

Totally off-rails wondering of why this seems to be an issue:

I participated in a game of WFRP3 while in Ropecon (here in Finland) and I have to say that it is really difficult to get new players interested in the game. There were only three guys playing the game and two of us were veteran of of 3rd edition. As this seems to be the case I suspect the game is not selling as well as it should. The idea behind the game is awesome but breaking the "must have" rules into different products just pisses off people.

Well regardless of what FFG would like to do/plan to do/can justify, one thing concerns me: no restocking of the Dice Pack at this stage. All new groups of this game discover that they require an extra few packs. If there isn't a demand few new packs, then I'd conclude the take up of new groups must be pretty low.

Although convention play can be problematic, at least we can use Map tools and the fantastic rule set for Fantasy Grounds. Online play might be an easy way to appeal to new players.

btw Universal Head, how did you resolve play from across the Tasman?

Good points about dice pack - need to support play and expansion of playing groups etc. More pods, more Day Late, Schilling Short stuff. Even if production line of boxes is stretched out, announce so we know that "it will come someday".

I've seen comments around these threads from people apparently involved in testing that there are more products in the pipe beyond TEW. But take that for what it is.

Speculation on the dice packs: maybe they're reformatting the way these are delivered? Possibly restructuring the ratios.

for the dice i would find it good if you could order specific dice in packs. my group is an almost only reckless group and therefor we always run out of those….

why not sell a pack of each color?

My completely baseless speculation:

They are pulling resources from WFRP to crank out a Star Wars RPG.

isn't there already a star wars RPG out somewhere? and i heard it's not the best setting to roleplay, to me at least. how could someone survive more than one direct hit with a lightsabre?

It doesn't seem like a dry year to me. We got Hero's Call in the Spring, 3 PODs throughout this year so far, and a mega campaign announced for the Winter. If the Enemy Within is the mega campaign FFG has hinted at, it must need a LOT of work. Shouldn't that be worth at least 2 or 3 boxed supplements?

Cheers
Ceodryn

Hi Daedalum - we haven't played yet, but we've been experimenting with a Skype setup, using Roll20 as a virtual tabletop. I was hoping our next adventure would be the new Enemy Within , but I can't see that being released for a long while, so I guess it will be The Witch's Song , though I'm not crazy about it.

I can tell you one thing, if WFRP gets canned (again), whoever takes on WFRP4 down the line shouldn't count on my patronage. I've played WFRP since the start, own every product ever released for it, but this will be the end of the line for me. No more restarts. Unfortunately, I think every version gets stuck in the old 'skaven in the sewers', 'nobles in cults summoning demons' rut, and no one has really moved significantly beyond that.

I like this new system, but the launch and re-launch was messy, a few of the systems, IMHO, weren't fully thought through and consistently applied (I'm looking at you, creature actions), and - total speculation here - I suspect it never really got off the ground for FFG and hasn't made enough dosh. I'll be very surprised if there's any significant support after TEW.

I don't want to be a doomsayer - I hope I'm completely wrong … but I think FFG could definitely re-confirm their support for the game at this point by more frequent releases and better communication with us fans.

nephtys said:

Yeah, if v3 has only a dwindling market, I'm pretty confident Ffg will still manage to release occasional Pods. FFG are pretty good at drip feeding support for more modest lines. We'll just have to see.

Headless: http://tabletopforge.com/ might suit that online setup. It's an rpg app for google+

Thanks - interesting, but from a quick glance, I think Roll20 has more features.

UniversalHead said:

It is mainly our problem also. Beign playing Warhammer since the 1st ed we feel a bit going over an over the same trashed plots. Especially because now I have no longer the time to prepare my own scenarios and we have to rely on published ones.

UniversalHead said:

After some time playing I have mixture feelings with the system. It looks nice, a brave and ambitious project…but a bit of a fail. It is like an IKEA furniture, from far away it looks nice, but then when you go into it you have to build it your self from the different pices and many do not fit with each other.

Dice pools are too large, creature system is a mess, opposed checks mechanics is bad, party sheet is a good idea but is a party ****…

On the other hand, opposite to you, I start to think that I would really love to see a new version of the game, may be one compatible with the 3rd but with some deep redesing on the mechanics and some of the concepts.

doc_cthulhu said:

This comment in it's entirety is true in my area. The most common comment I get from locals is that they looked at it for a nanosecond and then said words like "where to start without wasting money," " too expensive," "what's this guides and vaults crap that they're not even complete?," I have to spend how much money to get enough dice to be player?????"

So, there's this Greek restaurant near my house. They're in a bad location and opened up in the same place as where 3 other restaurants failed. They signed a 10 year lease and rented way too much space. So what? Well, you had to pay extra to get feta cheese on your gyros when they first opened up. They pissed off EVERYONE who went there for their grand opening. Guess how well they're doing? They're not doing. They have a great product, that's expensive and pretty and NOBODY EATS THERE. I can't help but think of the same thing with WFRP3 in that poor choices have been made in the past, and now its time to get back on the street with support.

This game needs an Elf product, a "new players join this way product", convention support, and a Player's Guide 2 asap. They need to start participating on their forums. They need to start supporting their base with something other than the collectible card game print on demand Wacky Packs. Treating us social roleplayers like 'multi-colored-puzzle' boardgamers or tactical wargamers will do nothing more than continue to alienate and turn-off established and new players alike. They can pull it off with 40jk rpg's with minimal effort, so how about a little more lover for us WFRP people. Roleplayers are social we do not appreciate being ignored and treated like mushrooms. We're getting boardgamed IMHO.

The portions of the rules that are weak don't really bother me. I can dump talent socketing, party sheets, and the retarded character-sheet-layout design. It's the method of release and the ignoring of the past, present, and future fans at every possible venue that pisses people off and makes you a fool for "falling for the required-collectable-schedule." Now, if this was tried for Star Wars, they'd have the name to back them up, but WFRP doesn't have that luxury. Innovation experimentation and pretty art just ain't gonna' cut it no' mo'.

I think if The Enemy Within comes out as a weakling product that doesn't at least surpass the original in terms of roleplaying excitement (not just more cardstock filler), and the POD's don't change their theme to be more than just a "prop up WFRP3's sales" technique, people are going to call into question their spending choices.

Another consideration is the leadership of this line: There's nobody in charge right now. The loss of Jay Little's enthusiasm for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, leaves us with a void and no standing voice for this game. Without a FAN in charge of WFRP, we've got nothing more than a silent, invisible sales manager. I see no podcasts, posts, announcements..nothing from whomever or whatever is in charge of this line currently other than sales posts.

I'm sorry if all this sounds really harsh, but I've supported this game since the beginning and I feel like we don't count except as sales statistics. I've stood with you guys up against the WFRP2 hatemongers and edition sabateurs. I continue to recruit authors to write for this system. I take extra time out of my day just to start 'hopefully' meaningful threads on these forums that will interest people to participate, and I'll honestly say it. This game is screwed if they don't figure something out other than the current approach..and those of us who bought in are stuck with the bill, spent effort, and nobody will be willing to join our games.

What can we do? We can keep nagging FFG. We can keep running and advertising games. We can participate in the Convention Scenario Contest. We can keep making fun posts and replies on this and other gaming forums to show that this game is alive and kicking. We can support RECKLESS DICE PODCAST and THE DAILY EMPIRE, other language groups, and other people doing WFRP3 support. We can tell our local game stores that they should carry dice packs

I'm having a neutron star ton worth of fun with this game, and I so want to share it with others. FFG, GET ME OTHERS TO SHARE IT WITH!

jh

^4e? Uh, no flippin' way. I think that would be a complete fleecing. Mongoose tried that with Conan..it almost broke them. Certainly you'd take the remaining tiny WFRP3 fanbase, hack it up even smaller and then what would be the point?

^ Dice packs: I see they're already going for $24/pack U.S. (normally $12)!!! If word gets out that FFG is not making the dice anymore, that translates into "we're quitting the game." That would be catastrophic for sales. I think it would be the equivalent of wotc's fiasco trying to still sell 4e products after announcing 5e.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Extra Dice Set
$11.95

WHF03

Availability: Out of Stock.

..

I've (almost) given up on speculating on whether or not WFRP3 is dead or just breathing shallowly or just suffering from the demands of the Star Wars game. Having spent a bloody fortune on cards and tokens when in truth all I want are books with background and scenarios in them (and I mean books, not PDFs), I'm not sure I can justify spending any more. I can get more for my money elsewhere. It's a shame, as I know some of the writing team and they are great writers.

WFRP3 has always tried to be new and different, but this is a problem. I accept that the system works, that people love the dice, that there is a certain convenience to having rules on cards rather than hidden away in umpteen supplements. Unfortunately, it's come at the cost of bloated collections of cards and tokens (when many gamers are looking to the convenience of PDFs) and the alienation of roleplayers who are traditionally rather conservative in their play style.

WFRP is a lot like Call of Cthulhu. Not just in terms of cults, conspiracies and desperation, but in terms of their markets. Both games have a very small, very loyal and very passionate fanbase who will buy pretty much anything. Both fanbases are also more interested in characters and situations than in abilities and powers. Unfortunately, I think this hardcore that would have kept a revised WFRP2 afloat was largely ignored. I don't think it's fair to blame FFG for this, as I suspect that GW's slimy claws are ultimately in charge here.

At this stage, I can see WFRP3 dribbling along with a box set from time to time and PoD cards becoming the predominant form of new material. However, if it's going to survive in any serious form, it probably needs a ruthlessly stripped down new edtion designed to limit future bloat, but that somehow manages to maintain backward compatibility for those who've already bought into WFRP3. I don't buy into the desirability of dice to add complexity to task resolution, but I think they could be used in a such way that cards were no longer necessary. Lose most if not all of the tracking that goes on in the game. The in-play information you need to run a PC needs to be described on one side of A4 with easy to read text, with no extraneous bits and pieces. Make it easy for people to play the game with nothing more than a sheet of paper, dice, pencil and eraser.

And for heaven's sake, FFG, talk to the fans and actively support them in their efforts to support your game. I know we can be ill-mannered, argumentative and unreasonably demanding, but when it comes down to it, you need us more than we need you.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

I suspect the number of diehard fans who will buy anything with the WFRP logo is pretty small (or at least, not large enough to support a commercial product line). Imagine being a brand manager for WFRP or a GW IP manager, and trying to navigate through all the Strongly Held Opinions that characterize the WFRP fanbase. It seems like the most sensible approach from a sales PoV is to focus on "safe" products that don't commit to any potentially controversial interpretations of the background (i.e. just about everything). Keep things brief and generic, and then nobody will object strongly to your take on the setting - at the very worst some fans will "disapprove mildly". Not that I think this is the best approach from a creative standpoint, but I could see how it might be considered the best sales strategy.

Herr Arnulfe said:

I'm not so sure it's that small or that unwilling, but I have no data to counteract your point. I can easily accept that that it's small enough that at best you'd only make a very modest profit, not big bucks. However, I think you can navigate the IP and keep fans happy - Warpstone and the other fan projects seem to manage. I think doing something interesting and original with the IP and keeping GW happy is the greater challenge.

Ultimately, I think the biggest sticking point is what a licence holder and GW want to get out of the RPG. If they want those big bucks, then they are probably wasting their time in the long term. If they are content to make a modest but regular profit (and maintain interest in the game and setting) then that might be possible if a similarly modest approach was taken to producing the game.

Cheers

Sparrow

Well I was hoping to stimulate a bit of discussion and it's interesting to hear that there are other long-term players out there frustrated with the lack of communication and support from FFG for this game. I agree with the point that there doesn't seem to be a leader at the helm anymore, and that someone's inspired creative vision and leadership is what's required.

I think those of us who came over from older versions made a big leap of faith changing to such a different system, and it seems a great shame that the faith is going to be rewarded with a tiny drip-feed of new releases and possibly the eventual removal of the patient from life support.

It's weird isn't it? You have one of the biggest fantasy IPs in the world, but no one seems to know what to do with it, beyond cultists, skaven and beastmen. I love the old gritty atmosphere of WFRP1, but even I would be happy to see the game go more 'Warhammery' if it meant an expansion of the creative focus, more main stream support, more players, more product … in fact, my players are getting so fed up with beastmen and sewer trips that they'd probably like a bit of 'high fantasy'. I thought we were going to see a bit of that in Hero's Call but that product felt really flat for me, especially the uninspired scenario at the end. We saw pictures of heroes jumping off volcanos into the maws of demons, and we got a boring orc seige and a stock-standard vampire fight.

I know, the answer is "well go make up your own adventures then" - but I don't have the time, and I suspect that new roleplayers also expect all that hard work to be done for them these days.

It's just frustrating. It's like Firefly being cancelled after one season. Good things need nurturing and time to grow. I just don't want to see WFRP fizzle out AGAIN - for the third time - until someone re-releases it for the fourth time and once again resets to the tired thinking that a bunch of cultists summoning a demon in the sewers is an exciting new idea for a WFRP scenario …

What would I do given a blank cheque and total freedom? Pare down the rules to a single box or book, with everything essential in it plus a fantastic scenario. Make expansions optional expansions , not core rules. Redesign the cards so the nomenclature is consistent and clear. Get rid of things that don't work (kill your babies) like the party sheet. Concentrate on good scenarios so people can play, play, play. Explore completely different adventure ideas, cover interesting cities and places outside of The Empire. And of course, most of all, get involved and communicate with the community. Run a WFRP blog, at the very least!

I understand that's all pretty impractical from a business perspective, but it's either get in there with the sleeves rolled up now, or let it die, and I sure hope they go for the former.

James Sparrow said:

I'm not so sure it's that small or that unwilling, but I have no data to counteract your point. I can easily accept that that it's small enough that at best you'd only make a very modest profit, not big bucks. However, I think you can navigate the IP and keep fans happy - Warpstone and the other fan projects seem to manage. I think doing something interesting and original with the IP and keeping GW happy is the greater challenge.

Ultimately, I think the biggest sticking point is what a licence holder and GW want to get out of the RPG. If they want those big bucks, then they are probably wasting their time in the long term. If they are content to make a modest but regular profit (and maintain interest in the game and setting) then that might be possible if a similarly modest approach was taken to producing the game.

Hiring a full-time brand manager and paying GW's IP fees immediately puts sales pressure on the license-holder. BR/GR tried to please all fans while making a profit by releasing a large volume of niche, but rushed products. FFG's solution seems to be a lower volume of high-quality, but generic products. Is it possible to navigate GW's IP and also satisfy the diverse WFRP fanbase while making high-quality products that are both substantive and also profitable? Maybe. But I think you'd have to hire a brand manager who's a hardcore WFRPer (i.e. intimate understanding of both the IP and the fanbase), possessed of sound business sense, and willing to work very hard for very little money. There just aren't many people who fit that description. Sure some of the fan material is better than official stuff, but publications like Warpstone and Liber Fanatica are produced by volunteers in their spare time, with no sales pressures, on their own schedules. Let's say Warpstone had to generate enough revenue to pay a salary for John, plus fees for all the writers, editors and artists; don't you think its content would be different?

WFRP's opinionated fanbase produces some great fan material, but factor in in sales pressures and GW's IP requirements, and I can see how a company might conclude that WFRP simply has too many navigational hazards to make it worthwhile business-wise. Or at least, not viable enough to justify hiring a full-time brand manager for.

EDIT: sorry, quote tags screwed up after the crosspost.

Good points thus far.

I'd argue that having a brand manager who gave a crap enough about us roleplayers to participate on the forums, wouldn't cost them jack. It would show leadership and reassure us that we're not just fricking cattle here.

One counter point though: the print on demand stuff: This is way over specialized. If they wanted to get it sold, they could release some abilities that EVERY career could use.

If they're afraid to break into canon, they shouldn't have bought the license IMHO. My guess is they're not worried about canon with the 40k line.

On a related note, I just ran a really great game of Pathfinder with my 7 year old about 5 minutes ago… Erik Mona posts EVERY DAY on their forums. Heck, Lisa Stevens posts regularly. They and the others at that roleplaying company know how to treat roleplayers…that is, not like boardgamers. We don't need just product, we need interaction..that's why we play this game. How much money does it cost to step up and say "here's what's up" and "we support you guys and this game in the best way we know how. Got any questions for us?"

Again, I hate to sound ranty, but this has bugged me for a while now and this thread gave me some much-needed brain-dump on the subject.

I love the other members of this community, but that's all we've got. It's hard to love "the corporation" if the only way they communicate is through random POD drops.

I'm not even demanding a bunch of expensive product. I just want to know that we're not just playing against the machine.

Where's the leadership? Where's our new Jay Little?

jh

..

Yeah, I think if JL hadn't got so sick, he would of provided some of that visibility. If he were to re-approach v3 down the track, I'm sure he'd have ideas on tightening it up.

I'm going to say the same thing I said the last two times this comes up:

FFG has tightly controlled communications. They do this because it causes less problems for them than more open communication. They don't announce products until they're really sure they're happening, but when products are close to being released they give us regular updates. I believe this is so they don't make promises that they can't deliver on.

A slower release schedule does not mean the game line is dying or there's a lack of love. It means that the key expansions (the ruinous powers) have been released and they're timing their other releases to fit the needs of the company and the wilingness of the fans to purchase. As much as I love having more product, they could easily produce more expansions than I could comfortably buy.

FFG seems to have a policy against posting to their forums. This is part of the tightly controlled communication. While creater input on forum is great from a fan point-of-view it can be detrimental to a company. Improperly worded comments can quickly become a PR disaster, or a well meaning employee might provide information the company isn't ready to release or… I don't know, but I've been on enough forums to see employees posting both officialy and unofficially to understand the concern.

I am surprised that we haven't had a new Print on Demand expansion announced, but I have faith that we will continue to get material produced, just not at the rate as the first year or two.

Well I love WHFRP and hope it gets continued support we need a human expansion that adds in Cathay, Nippon, ind, Kislev,bretonnia, tilea, Estalia, and Araby rules for their human race, careers that fit those lands like Nippon samurai ect then lastly 4 adventures each a unique location not in the empire.

This expands the world beyond empire lore, expands human options in a way many fantasy games have not as usually a human is a human.

Warhammer has pretty much always had an " oh there's a Warhammer RPG? Cool…wanna play D&D " vibe to it. I'm not condoning or admonishing FFG for their treatment of 3rd edition, but I have seen this before .

I am convinced ( after a long talk with myself with powerful visual aids presented by myself in a crossfire banter with..myself ) that FFG is focusing a great deal of their time/cash-on-hand toward the Star Wars franchise. They must have paid out the wingdoodle for it, and it makes sense for them to drain their pool of freelancers and staffed designers to put out something that will allow them to "print their own money" with the most iconic IP on Earth (sorry star trek…there are just more star wars geeks out there).

Given the state of the RPG Industry…fantasy IP has been decided for now . For the next <arbitrary length of time> Pathfinder and D&D are going to slug it out for the attention and cash of the fantasy role playing consumer-base. Everyone else gets to fight over other genres (Sci-Fi, Modern, etc) or deal with what few fantasy customers fall off the table (which is enough to sustain small outfits here and there make no mistake). FFG isn't a tiny company, and neither is GW. Duking it out with Dragon Age or the Old School d&d movement for the leavings of Pathfinder and D&D just can't be a good idea. It'll either cause friction with the fans by pumping out crud just to milk them of their cash for a well loved IP. Or it'll cause friction at a corporate level by sinking too much capital into development of a game that doesn't balance the books.

Okay now that I've vomited the doomy-gloomy angle. I have to say that I am glad the IP is in FFG's hands. Where previous companies have folded up shop, or had the license pulled by GW….FFG will keep WFRP on life support ( largely through other revenue streams from card games, board games and the 40k franchises ). That in and of itself will drive fans away that feel ignored and unsupported. But a drip feed of new material and a semi-annual release schedule is far superior (in MY mind) to flushing the whole system and rebooting with v4 so that we can see the Rat Catcher, Chaos Magic & War Priests done up….again.

If a v4 does come along it'll be from a different company licensing the IP. And that company will have to find a way of reaching out to a whole new generation of gamers because those of us that have bumped and bruised along with each shift, and repurchased the same game-world content over and over…we'll be gone. Or at least I will be.

I guess I wouldn't call my self optimistic. But I'd definitely put myself into the "contently realistic" category.