Heavy Stroke? Help!

By GhostWolf69, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

Posted at

schmoo34 said:

I believe people overthink things.

I do like the last response making the argument that it would be a devalued card. Let's look at this from a practical perspective. When would a person want to play heavy stroke? Answer: When fighting a creature with high hit points.

How many creatures have high hit points but also low defense so as to allow a dwarf to actually damage that creature on its own, solo? I can't think of any at all.

So the only creatures that this card is worth using on are those which have 2 or 3 defense like hill trolls, ungoliant's spawn, the jailor, the name is eluding me but it is the orc who gets an additional resource token every time he attacks. Those are the cards you WANT to use it for and Gimli can't damage a single one of them on his own unless he is near death. In fact, the only dwarf who can is the battlemaster.

So the card would be reduced to ONLY a card which can be used with the battlemaster or a near-dead Gimli.

Therefore, from a logic perspective, not from a literal English perspective, I am left with no other conclusion than the spirit of this card was to be used to double damage made by the dwarf regardless of how many others also attacked; i.e. if Aaragorn reduces defense to 0, Gimli gets to do 4 damage instead of 2.

And if that is not enough logic to convince you, it is a tactics card and tactics needs some love…and they deserve to have powerful cards…so perhaps that appeals to your emotional side of the brain if logic is not your strongsuit.

I totally agree on this one. This is how I play it. And if emotion or logic don't cut it how about just brute force? As said, it's a tactics card and they have more muscles than brains after all :)

Posted at

As I said this is how I house rule it i never claimed it was correct…. I just think it makes way more sense. the way I do it and I do not think we will be changing until there is an official ruling

The argument that it is not as powerful relative to the cost of Khzad Khzad is not an argument.. card costs do not need to be relative or balanced. Just because Khzad Khzad is cheaper doesn't mean this should be the same cost or be relatively as powerful (or more powerful)

Neither is the idea that high HP monsters have high defence argument. In fact this is one of the reasons i like the card as we play it. Say you are fighting the Watcher at 7defence. There is many ways to get an attack form a single dwarf above 7.. the easiest one would be gimli, but there are marks + Support of the Eagles can also easily get to this power. Getting over 7 defence is a huge effort so that extra dmg you can get from this card is a HUGE bonus.. and makes the card extremely valuable.

Either way.. I simply do not buy the argument.. "well the card is not as powerful as I would like it to be so it should be able to be cast in this situation were it is a much stronger card"

Especially when my rule variant is a common and repeatable game situation, that works game play wise and thematically AND match the rules.

richsabre said:

i am swaying towards this….if so then, as stated previously, the better wording would have been 'when a dwarf PARTICIPATES in an attack that deals X damage…..'

Exactly… but it doesn't say that dose it?

Our house rule is the only interpretation that is exact to the rules based on the CARD text, and as the FAQ and RULE book says "the golden rule" witch is that card text overrides ALL over game rules at the time they are read during effect payments and resolutions. So it is completely irrelevant how other attacks are calculated. As the card text over rides this.

Events are like passive global .. well events.. . You cast them and the game world changes for a second. Then after the event starts the resolution of the event begins and "triggers" of a game situation.

Response: After a Dwarf deals X damage to an enemy during combat, deal and additional X damage to that enemy. (Limit once per phase.)

This event targets a SINGLE dwarf, and then the event triggers of the condition on that SINGLE dwarf's dmg…

I think this is pretty clear cut…

Posted at

Confused here. First it doesn't really matter if the text on a card reads PARTICIPATING as per the example with Dwalin and Legolas. And now it's suddenly very important? If you treat Dwalin the same way as Legolas then there obviously shouldn't be a problem reading the text on heavy stroke as PARTICIPATING. Else, please clarify :)

Posted at

booored said:

This event targets a SINGLE dwarf, and then the event triggers of the condition on that SINGLE dwarf's dmg…

My previous point (and I think the point of some of the others in this thread) is that Dwalin is also a SINGLE dwarf.

His event triggers on "Dwalin attacks AND destroys an Orc."

That's where our confusion lies.

But I know… we've been here before and we don't have to agree. The rules (card texts) ARE ambiguous and should be officially RULED.

Until then we all have to house rule what we think is best.

/wolf

Posted at

I'm not sure the golden rule has to apply here. If there's a way for both the standard rules and the card text to be met, there is no conflict in which to call upon the golden rule. I don't think this card is clear enough for us to have any idea if it is contradicting the rules or not.

Posted at

booored said:

Our house rule is the only interpretation that is exact to the rules based on the CARD text…

Incorrect. When Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn are attacking together, and their combined attack value exceeds the enemy's defense, the resulting damage is being dealt by a dwarf. It is also being dealt by a Ranger, and a Silvan. The same value; multiple traits. This interpretation aligns to both the card text, and the rules.

You're welcome.

/thread

Posted at
hen Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn are attacking together, and their combined attack value exceeds the enemy's defense, the resulting damage is being dealt by a dwarf. It is also being dealt by a Ranger, and a Silvan. The same value; multiple traits. This interpretation aligns to both the card text, and the rules.

I complete disagree with that.

The dmg is not being done by the dwarf.. it is being done as a combines attack by all the characters.. there is no way to tell were the dmg is coming form and who did what… IF this was that case for the card it should use the word "participate" as stated by others or a similar keyword.. it doesn't so imo, that logic just completely fails.

If 3 people all jump in the air and you measure the height the jumped combined .. that doesn't mean each individual jumped that same value.

Posted at

Pericles said:

booored said:

Our house rule is the only interpretation that is exact to the rules based on the CARD text…

Incorrect. When Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn are attacking together, and their combined attack value exceeds the enemy's defense, the resulting damage is being dealt by a dwarf. It is also being dealt by a Ranger, and a Silvan. The same value; multiple traits. This interpretation aligns to both the card text, and the rules.

You're welcome.

/thread

Hm, could it be that easy? That would be the easiest way to do it. I'll laugh my but off if this will be the answer from Nate. Teaches us to over think everything and confuse ourselfs gran_risa.gif

Posted at

mr.thomasschmidt said:

Pericles said:

booored said:

Our house rule is the only interpretation that is exact to the rules based on the CARD text…

Incorrect. When Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn are attacking together, and their combined attack value exceeds the enemy's defense, the resulting damage is being dealt by a dwarf. It is also being dealt by a Ranger, and a Silvan. The same value; multiple traits. This interpretation aligns to both the card text, and the rules.

You're welcome.

/thread

Hm, could it be that easy? That would be the easiest way to do it. I'll laugh my but off if this will be the answer from Nate. Teaches us to over think everything and confuse ourselfs gran_risa.gif

problem is if you start to under think cards, then many of the finer points of the game fall to pieces. not to mention there has been some pretty indepth rulings that have come out of players requesting nate's answer….id hope that he gives us at least an in depth reasoning to his answer that also makes sense in the rules

with all the cards that come out i think it would end up choas if we didnt look indepth at these things

Posted at

Official Ruling has come down…

Booored:

With Heavy Stroke.. did the card mean to say "an attack that a dwarf participates in" or dose it mean the
dmg the target dwarf makes IN an attack. Like if you have Aragorn and Dwalin attacking a 1 Defence
Monster with 5 Health….

Is it…
Arragon (3) + Dwalin (2) = 5 -1(Defence ) = 4 dmg + Heavy Stroke (double dmg) = 8 dmg Total

Or is it..
Aragorn (3) + Dwalin (2) = 5-1 Defence = 4 dmg + Heavy Stroke (Dwalin 2 -1 = 1 dmg doubled (2) )
= 6 Dmg total?

Thanks in advance

Caleb:

Hi Booored,
The way Heavy Stroke is intended to work depends on allowing players to choose which character's attack value is applied to the enemy's defense value. In your example, the optimal way to play Heavy Stroke would be to apply Aragorn's attack 3 to the enemy's 1 defense. So Aragorn is dealing 2 damage to the enemy and Dwalin is also dealing 2 damage, at which point you play Heavy Stroke to double Dwalin's damage and make it 4 for a total of 6 damage dealt to the enemy.

Just to clarify it further, let's say Aragorn and Dwalin were attacking an enemy with 4 defense. The optimal way to play Heavy Stroke would be to apply all 3 of Aragron's attack plus 1 of Dwalin's to beating the enemy's defensse, then Dwalin would deal 1 damage to the enemy that could be double with Heavy Stroke for a total of 2.

Hope that helps,

Posted at

i see, pleased thats clarified- guess it was the complex version gui%C3%B1o.gif

Posted at

richsabre said:

i see, pleased thats clarified- guess it was the complex version gui%C3%B1o.gif

It wasn't the complex version, it was the only version that made any sense when you step back and see it from a 1000 foot view.

Posted at

richsabre said:

i see, pleased thats clarified- guess it was the complex version gui%C3%B1o.gif

A agree with your last answer to my latest post. Actually I do think this is a pretty logical way to do it and not too complex. A little mix between the two :

Posted at

booored said:

Hi Booored,
The way Heavy Stroke is intended to work depends on allowing players to choose which character's attack value is applied to the enemy's defense value. In your example, the optimal way to play Heavy Stroke would be to apply Aragorn's attack 3 to the enemy's 1 defense. So Aragorn is dealing 2 damage to the enemy and Dwalin is also dealing 2 damage, at which point you play Heavy Stroke to double Dwalin's damage and make it 4 for a total of 6 damage dealt to the enemy.

Just to clarify it further, let's say Aragorn and Dwalin were attacking an enemy with 4 defense. The optimal way to play Heavy Stroke would be to apply all 3 of Aragron's attack plus 1 of Dwalin's to beating the enemy's defensse, then Dwalin would deal 1 damage to the enemy that could be double with Heavy Stroke for a total of 2.

Hope that helps,

That is actually 100% the way we have played it so far and thought it should be played. But I admit that the card text gave little support for the idea, so it was a wild guess.

Glad we don't have to change anything.

/wolf

Posted at

Ok, that ruling makes sense. Thanks for asking, booored!

Posted at

Wow, I was right for once!

Posted at

short question:

How many damage does an enemy (DEF 4) get,

if Aragorn (3) and Dwalin (2), who is wearing one dwarrowdelf axe (+1 ATK / 1 damage at the end), attack this enemy and the player plays heavy stroke at the end of the combat?

I think it will be 6, beacuse Aragorn reduces the defense to 1 and Dwalin does 3-1 = 2 damage, after that i have the choice, whichte response will trigger first. 1. dwarrowdelf axe then heavy stroke .. :) -> Dwalin does (2+1)x2 damage.

Is this right?

JanB

Posted at

JanB said:

short question:

How many damage does an enemy (DEF 4) get,

if Aragorn (3) and Dwalin (2), who is wearing one dwarrowdelf axe (+1 ATK / 1 damage at the end), attack this enemy and the player plays heavy stroke at the end of the combat?

I think it will be 6, beacuse Aragorn reduces the defense to 1 and Dwalin does 3-1 = 2 damage, after that i have the choice, whichte response will trigger first. 1. dwarrowdelf axe then heavy stroke .. :) -> Dwalin does (2+1)x2 damage.

Is this right?

JanB

Isn't the Axe triggered immediately when you Declare Attackers?

I though it was.

EDIT: But it is still an interesting Question though. is that 1 point of damage coming from the Dwarf attached to it or from the Axe itself?

That should maybe answer the question…

/wolf

Posted at

GhostWolf69 said:

Isn't the Axe triggered immediately when you Declare Attackers?

I though it was.

EDIT: But it is still an interesting Question though. is that 1 point of damage coming from the Dwarf attached to it or from the Axe itself?

That should maybe answer the question…

/wolf

there was a thread on BGG that questioned this if you google dwarrowdelf axe- i dont know if it was ever ruled either way

some said it was, some after the attack resolved

i would like to know the answer if someone has it

rich

Posted at

My interpretation is that the 1 damage dealt to the enemy is from the axe, but the +1 attack is being given to the dwarf so it would be doubled by Heavy Stroke.

Posted at

The dmg form the Axe is placed at response speed (instantly) when the enemy attacks. This is similar to how the Gondorian Spearman functions, though that one triggers at response speed when you declare it a defender.

The point of dmg from both these cards ignores the defence value of the enemy and are completely unrelated to ANY OTHER dmg… it is an effect, that triggers and then is resolved.. independently and separate form all other effects in teh game.

As said above, the +1 attack is a passive constant on the character that simply adds to its total attack vale. IF the modified attack value adds dmg then heavy stroke will double that.

Posted at

booored said:

The dmg form the Axe is placed at response speed (instantly) when the enemy attacks. This is similar to how the Gondorian Spearman functions, though that one triggers at response speed when you declare it a defender.

The point of dmg from both these cards ignores the defence value of the enemy and are completely unrelated to ANY OTHER dmg… it is an effect, that triggers and then is resolved.. independently and separate form all other effects in teh game.

right i see. thanks

Posted at

ah .. then i played dwarrowdelf-axe wrong :)

Posted at

booored said:

The dmg form the Axe is placed at response speed (instantly) when the enemy attacks. This is similar to how the Gondorian Spearman functions, though that one triggers at response speed when you declare it a defender.

The point of dmg from both these cards ignores the defence value of the enemy and are completely unrelated to ANY OTHER dmg… it is an effect, that triggers and then is resolved.. independently and separate form all other effects in teh game.

As said above, the +1 attack is a passive constant on the character that simply adds to its total attack vale. IF the modified attack value adds dmg then heavy stroke will double that.

The damage is dealt after the attached character attacks, not after the enemy does. I guess that's what you wanted to say?

Posted at

leptokurt said:

booored said:

The dmg form the Axe is placed at response speed (instantly) when the enemy attacks. This is similar to how the Gondorian Spearman functions, though that one triggers at response speed when you declare it a defender.

The point of dmg from both these cards ignores the defence value of the enemy and are completely unrelated to ANY OTHER dmg… it is an effect, that triggers and then is resolved.. independently and separate form all other effects in teh game.

As said above, the +1 attack is a passive constant on the character that simply adds to its total attack vale. IF the modified attack value adds dmg then heavy stroke will double that.

The damage is dealt after the attached character attacks, not after the enemy does. I guess that's what you wanted to say?

i read it as when the character is declared as attacker, not after attack resolution- at least thats what i though booored was saying as he said it was 'response speed'