Can some one help me out here?

"Heavy Stroke

Response: After a Dwarf deals X damage to an enemy during combat, deal and additional X damage to that enemy. (Limit once per phase.) "

How the heck would I know exactly how much damage came from the Dwarf if multiple characters are attacking?
Can I choose freely up to the Dwarf's Attack-limit?

/wolf

im not 100% but i think you take the dwarf damage dealt only, and deal it again, not counting of course the damage by others

so for eg. gimli and aragorn deal 5 damage collectively, with aragorn dealing 3 and gimli 2 - you play the event and take the two damage and deal it again

im interested on others insight to this

rich

Yes.

My question though is this:

If three characters attack; only one dwarf; Attack Values 2+3(dwarf)+4 = 9
Defense of the Enemy is 4…. Damage would be 5.

Is it up to me as a player to simply declare 3 out of those 5 as being "dealt by the dwarf" and add another 3?
The card is referring damage. Not Attack Value. Yet Damage can come from multiple Characters and some of it is deducted along the way…

I'm only confused because this is the only card that would have me track how much damage (not attack value) comes from what character.

Or, so it seems…

/wolf

This is an interesting question. Say the enemy has 3 defense, so does Aragorn's attack take the defense to 0 and Gimli deals 2 damage? Or does Gimli take the defense to 1, and Aragorn has one attack point absorbed by the defense and 2 points go to damage? I'm inclined to believe that the designers intended this to be used only when a dwarf attacks alone.

Budgernaut said:

This is exactly my question. :-)
I would like to believe it is up to the player to decide… but it could be multiple players involved… so who decides? First Player?
This discussion could be even more complicated if you consider some effects linked to "killing".

For example:

Dvalin

Response: After Dwalin attacks and destroys an Orc enemy, lower your threat by 2.

If Dvalins Attack was only used to "reduce enemy Defense" while another character actually killed the Enemy…. can I still trigger Dvalin's effect?

Personally I would hate having to split attack values up in details like this so I'm hoping for a "yes" to this question as well.

/wolf

I already asked this here and the answer by most players was that the whole attack value counts. It's simply not possible to determine the damage that a single character caused in a multi-attack. Say the defender has 3 points damage and you attack with Aragorn and Gimli - that's two points damage, but dealt by which character? Is a player able to choose, so that Aragorn cancels the defense and Gimli causes the damage?

leptokurt said:

That would be even simpler… but it would also open up the possibility of having HUGE damage values since you practically double it…. that would make this card awesome. *worried look*

/wolf

leptokurt said:

This is very sloppy thinking.. and it is not your fault the card is terribly worded. Though this seams like typical "player picking the best option".. not the most logical or most "correct".

How I play it is kinda like what rich said.. and it should be noted there is nothing official, so this is just my own house rule.. but… … .

If Aragorn and Gloin attack a monster with 3 defence… then as Gloin is unable to place dmg at all then you can not double it. So the card is not usable. What I am getting at that untll we get a rulling from Nate.. the way I am playing this card is that the dwalf needs to be able to place dmg by himself with no help form others, regardless of being used in joint attacks, and it only doubles HIS damage. So say you attack a 1(D) / 5(L) monster with Arragorn and Gloin… that is 4 total dmg (3+2-1) but Gloin can hit it for 1 by himself.. so you can use this card to double that and make it 2.. so it is 3+2-1+1 = 5

This card defiantly needs a official ruling

Huh… that's a third or fourth option / interpretation.

I see it's not "just me" that has problems with this card. Comforting, in a way.

I don't agree with your house rule, but that's okay.

Reason is that it would lead me to think you don't use Dwalin's ability either unless he can slay an enemy single-handedly… and surely this cannot be the case?

BTW I'm not agreeing with adding it all up and double it either. And my own house-rule is not perfect either…. all of these attempts to fix the holes (mine included) seem like they just bring up more questions.

/wolf

GhostWolf69 said:

not slay… put at least 1 point of dmg on by himself.. and then the card doubles THAT dmg witch is added to the total dmg that is normally calculated in a joint attack.

But yeah it is a house rule so i am not saying this is correct.. it just feels right to me.

booored said:

I heard you. but I switched card (sorry for the confusion). The Dwalin card says if he "attacks and destroys an enemy"…. It doesn't say he has to attack alone… so how can you tell if Dwalin slays anything if there are multiple attackers involved? Would you apply the same thinking as you did on "Heavy Stroke" comparing Dwalin-by-him-self first to see if the Response is valid?

I wouldn't.

/wolf

Basically what we are talking about / asking ourselves here is the this:

What is the difference (if any) between "dealing damage" and "participating in an attack that deals damage".

What is the difference (if any) between "attacking and destroying an enemy" and "participating in an attack that destroys an enemy".

/wolf

GhostWolf69 said:

I thought we were talking about heavy stroke…. Dwalin's ability is like Lego's ability and he just need to participate in the attack. This is nto related to heavy stroke at all.

booored said:

I disagree. Legolas ability explicitly says "participates in an attack". Dwalin's ability does NOT. Hence my confusion and the topic at hand.

If damage dealt from a specific character triggers an effect…. what happens when that character "participates"?

In Legolas case it is obvious because Participation is enough to trigger it.

In the case of Dwalin it is not so obvious.

Heavy Stroke suffers from exactly the same ambiguity. IMO.

/wolf

has someone sent this to nate? becuase i dont think we're going to figure it out without ffg's official ruling

GhostWolf69 said:

1) I think that there is a difference… This card is cast on a single character.. and triggers of THAT characters dmg. This is obviously (imo) a different game state than a combined attack. The card can only hit dwarfs, and only one at a time it seams pretty clear to me that this means the effect needs to be separated. Even if you attacked with two dwarfs, the event can only target one of them… So by definition of how events work.. you have to only count 1 of the attacking dwarfs. (that is how i see it anyway)

2) If you are trying to lift a box, and 2 people lift it together, then the box has been lifted up.. regardless of how much each individual has contributed.. this is the same for destroying a monster. The end result is the monster is destroyed and Dwalin / Lego DID attack it.. so their effects triggers.

GhostWolf69 said:

this is a good point but our conversation is going faster than I can type!! I'll copy my other post to get everythign in order again..

If you are trying to lift a box, and 2 people lift it together, then the box has been lifted up.. regardless of how much each individual has contributed.. this is the same for destroying a monster. The end result is the monster is destroyed and Dwalin / Lego DID attack it.. so their effects triggers.

Now granted the card dose not have the participate text, but

Response: After Dwalin attacks and destroys an Orc enemy, lower your threat by 2.

So… it is saying that he has to attack an orc, and the orc has to die. That is it.. participating or attacking solo dose not change the trigger events in any way.

booored said:

I see your point and I agree on how you resolve Dwalin's ability. That is the way I'm playing it too. But for clarity's sake they could have worded it as "participates" if that is what they intended… just like they did on Legolas. It's inconsistent to have different wordings when you mean the same thing, and causes confusion. At least for me.

In the case of Heavy Stroke I don't agree with your resolution though. But that is okay, we all have our own house rules when the game doesn't provide us clear guidance.

I still think the two cases boils down to the same issue though:

If the card doesn't say "attacks alone" and doesn't say "participates in an attack", but still clearly target one specific character… then how should we play it?

Neither Heavy Stroke nor Dwalin's ability is clear on that.

/wolf

booored said:

It could also be interpreted that Dwalin has to Destroy the Orc.

After Dwalin /…/ Destroys an Orc.

But… we still agree on how to play that one. And yes… we are going a little fast… maybe we should take five?

/wolf

For what its worth, I'm interpreting Heavy Stoke as "After a Dwarf participate in an attack that deals X damage, deal an additional X damage to that enemy. (Limit once per phase.) "

As RichSabre has suggested, we need an official answer from Nate.

booored said:

Not sloppy thinking, but trying to approach an interpretation that makes sense. Your interpretion doesn't make much sense, as this card would be incredibly weak. It costs 1 resource after all, while "Khazad-Khazad" costs nil resources. The latter gives a dwarf a boost of 3 ATT which is a big help against strong enemies, while "Heavy Stroke" works against weak opponents only which you can kill easily without using this card..

When I asked the answer last time the answers were like "works like Legolas and Dwalin".

I believe people overthink things.

I do like the last response making the argument that it would be a devalued card. Let's look at this from a practical perspective. When would a person want to play heavy stroke? Answer: When fighting a creature with high hit points.

How many creatures have high hit points but also low defense so as to allow a dwarf to actually damage that creature on its own, solo? I can't think of any at all.

So the only creatures that this card is worth using on are those which have 2 or 3 defense like hill trolls, ungoliant's spawn, the jailor, the name is eluding me but it is the orc who gets an additional resource token every time he attacks. Those are the cards you WANT to use it for and Gimli can't damage a single one of them on his own unless he is near death. In fact, the only dwarf who can is the battlemaster.

So the card would be reduced to ONLY a card which can be used with the battlemaster or a near-dead Gimli.

Therefore, from a logic perspective, not from a literal English perspective, I am left with no other conclusion than the spirit of this card was to be used to double damage made by the dwarf regardless of how many others also attacked; i.e. if Aaragorn reduces defense to 0, Gimli gets to do 4 damage instead of 2.

And if that is not enough logic to convince you, it is a tactics card and tactics needs some love…and they deserve to have powerful cards…so perhaps that appeals to your emotional side of the brain if logic is not your strongsuit.

Since these things are happening simultaneously, wouldn't the first player get to decide the effective order? And so a smart first player would apply Aragorn's damage first followed by Gimli's.

(I still think Heavy Stroke shouldn't have been dwarf only.)

Memetix said:

I agree with the above interpretation, particularly since the rulebook seems to discourage separating character's attack values. Per page 20, "A player may declare multiple characters as attackers against a single enemy, pooling their attack strength into a single value ." (emphasis mine) This leads me to believe that FFG would not design a card that would require identifying how an individual character's attack strength would be allocated amidst multiple attackers.

But, yeah, +1 for an official ruling.

Pericles said:

i am swaying towards this….if so then, as stated previously, the better wording would have been 'when a dwarf PARTICIPATES in an attack that deals X damage…..'