A few complaints my players have had about regiment creation, and suggested ways to fix it (namely, how we're currently houseruling the problems)

1: There's no option for Favored Weapon. It should be pretty easy to fix this obviously-- just add an explanation of how you pick it to the end of regiment creation rules. Is it just one heavy and one special? Can it be two specials, or two heavies? Can they specialize in unconventional weapons like two-handed swords or warhammers? etc.

2: There's no way to get just one weapon in the squad-- like giving a recon squad a single sniper rifle for example. This is a complaint that's linked to the above in some sense, but we're able to give everyone in the squad a multi-melta or even a best quality autocannon, and yet we're not able to give the group just the one missile launcher. It would be nice if we could purchase a squad heavy weapon, perhaps linking it to the favored weapon-- allowing the squad to start with one of the favored weapons and two reloads in exchange for five to ten points depending on the weapon, for example?

3: Heavy gunners and weapon specialists need access to their regiment's favored weapons! It's a simple fix, allow them to opt to instead have their regiment's special weapon if they have a heavy (for gunners) or basic (for specialists) weapon in their favored weapons choices, and two reloads. We'll certainly be doing that, to be sure.

4: Snipers. The only real dedicated sniper class is the ratling, and since few of us want to play mutants, we've come up with a house-ruled modification of the weapon specialist class. Change weapon skill aptitude to offense, add deadeye shot as a talent choice (instead of lasgun barrage or rapid reload), use the ratling's comrade skills and give the option of getting a long las instead of the usual basic weapon choices. It'd be nice to see some changes to allow for non-mutant psykers-- while ratlings do amuse me, none of my players have any interest in it and have complained that it's hard to make a sniper without playing as a ratling.

We're still going through the creation process and I'm preparing for my first campaign in this system (having played the other four FFG systems, I'm the most familiar with them of the group), but we'll be playtesting it in the coming weeks. I like what I see so far, it just needs some minor changes from what I can tell.

Non-mutant snipers.

Bad typo is bad.

About the regimetal rules I think that including some kind of flaws to get a little more point would be a welcomed addition. For example a reputation for insubordination (like the Catachans) or some major supply problem etc.

Also, I agree that some rules for a weapon specialist sniper are in order.

More of those 'complaints', ey Mel?

You can actually kill two Ratlings with one sniper bullet in this. I agree that Favoured Weapon rule should probably have some sort of in-game mechanic, both from the perspective of modifying the Regiment's basic kit and for the Heavy Gunner/Weapon Special class.

My suggestion would be four things linked together, using existing mechanics:

1. Each regiment picks a favoured Basic Weapon and a favoured Heavy Weapon. It cannot have an availability higher than Very Rare.
1a. Change Man-Portable Lascannon to Very Rare, change Multi-Melta and Plasma Cannon to Extremely Rare. There's no way that a Guard unit should be able to get MM's and PC's over Lascannons. That's just silly, and utterly unsupported by the fluff. Change the Meltagun to Very Rare (I believe Extremely Rare is a mistake on that one anyway).

2. Add the following lines to Table 2-6: Additional Standard Kit Items (Page 34):


Item of Upgrade Cost Limitations
Add one Favouared Basic Weapon to each Squad 5* May only be taken once.
Add one Favoured Heavy Weapon to each Squad 10* May only be taken once.

*The cost could vary, anywhere from 5-8 for the Basic, 10-15 for the Heavy, whatever 'feels' right in the end. I'm just using 5/10 as basic examples.

3. Change the Specialist Equipment listing on the Heavy Gunner (Page 40) to say the following:

Specialist Equipment: Common Craftsmanship Missile Launcher with 5 Frag Missiles or Common Craftsmanship Heavy Bolter or Common Craftsmanship Regimental Favoured Heavy Weapon.

4. Change the Specialist Equipment listing on the Weapon Specialist (Page 48) to say the following:

Specialist Equipment: 4 Frag or Krak Grenades, Good Craftsmanship Lasgun or Common Craftsmanship Flamer or Common Craftsmanship Shotgun or Common Craftsmanship Regimental Favoured Basic Weapon.


And given that there's nothing stopping you from selecting a Long-Las or Sniper Rifle as a 'Favoured Basic Weapon', you could add that to any Weapon Specialist automatically, or one to the squad if you wanted to modify your starting kit.

BYE

Why does everyone gripe about ratlings being the snipers? Come on guys, just play the midget and imagine that your playing a future version of Frodo where he gets tired of Sauron's s#!t and goes postal all over Mordor.

Darklordofbunnies said:

Yeah; everyone was asking to have Ratlings back then, we got Ratlings, they want a human sniper C'mon!

Darklordofbunnies said:

Because a large chunk of us never wanted Ratlings to begin with, and they're hands down the only 'good' sniper option.

Heck, I despise hobbits, never liked Lord of the Rings, and think Ratlings are stupid. Yet I want to be a sniper. Their comrade abilities are very generic, but if I don't get a GM who will -let- me be a human and get those Comrade Abilities, I'll never be a very good sniper. Ratlings should be good at it only because of the natural skill boosts. Small means can fit in nests easier. It doesn't make them better shots. Heck, 'spotters' are something almost every sniper team should have, not just Ratlings.

And to address Braddoc's comment. No, not everyone wanted them. I'd say the crowd who was against Ratlings was just as big as those wanting them. Not everyone likes Hobbits.

I totally recall tons of vocal fans wanting Ab-Humans in there, and the option is wonderful, but the option for human snipers has been growing, especially since the beta. I would totally just house rule an extra aptitude or 2 if there was table consent for it.

@Dulahan, have you thought of being the GM and allowing others to bend the rules, such as human snipers? I know you wouldn't be playing from the side of the screen that lets you kill Orks etc, but if you've got a GM who doesn't let you play the way you want, could it possibly be an idea you were open to? Kind of a "my way or the highway" thing, but with definite results.

I like hobbits, but I never asked for ratlings

Actually I'd rather have rules for, more generic mutant levies, but YMMV.

jordiver2 said:

I don't like GMing, frankly.

Plus this is a beta, and it's important to make sure stuff like this is out there, because right now there's still a chance things could get changed, up to and including adding a viable human sniper build too. After all, I think a lot of people are going to want to be Vassili Zeitzev, not Frodo Zeitzev.

We get it - some people don't like Ratlings. Some do. We have different opinions. That's amazing. But we're kinda getting away from the point here.

BYE

Indeed, my comments were focused on regiment creation anyway.

Melissia said:

I posted an idea for a Marksman specialist. Take a look if you're interested and let me know what you think of it.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I like Hobbits…

I've also had a Ratling squad in my Guard Army since 2nd Edition.

H.B.M.C. said:

Love this idea! I think it's perfect. And it's done right. Giving page numbers and everything.

Another thing I've noticed is that whilst it's entirely possible to change a Regiments starting weapon to shotguns, or give them Stub pistols and the like, there's no option to give the PC's the Weapon Training talents to actually USE these weapons without the -20 untrained penalty.

There should be some way of spending those Regimental Kit points to get that training at the start. Otherwise there's not really any point of giving regiments this. As is it largely means that Elysians who have Shotguns then have to put down usually 800xp (more than either Guardsmen or Specialists get) to actually be capable of using their Main Weapon!

Mward1984 said:

You did notice that the Weapon Specialist picks 3 Weapon training talents (excluding heavy and exotics) of their choice; so Solid Projectile is easily obtained? Or, that Weapon training has the Aptitudes of General (which EVERYONE has according to page 65) as well as Finesse ? So, Weapon Training talents; which are Tier 1, are, at most 400xp for any character.

That the Elysian Drop Troops use shotguns instead of lascarbines I do not understand, as their fluff in other sources always mention lascarbines…

-=Brother Praetus=-

I sort of agree with the Elysian points. They are primarily known for using bullpups and lascarbines over shotguns. Saying that, close support veterans and combat engineers would favour shotguns over the general las weaponry issued to 'normal' regimental troops.

On the topic of shotguns, I don't quite understand why the Weapon Specialist has the option of taking a common shotgun. A bog standard, single shot shotgun when put as an option seems a very underwhelming compared to the good-craft lasgun option he can take never mind the meltagun . If this was a Combat shotgun like the Elysians apparently use it would be a much more appealing option.

This is pretty obvious given how the stock regiments are written up, but it might be worth asking:

1. When does the decision point over which characteristic increase from home world occur? During the creation of the regiment, or an individual character?

Example: the 714th Hindarian Raiders come from a death world. Does everyone in the 714th have to take +3 toughness/+3 strength, or can squad member A opt for +3 per/+3 tough, while squad member B opts for +3 str/+3 toughness. As a GM I'm willing to offer the second option, to represent that individuals may still have slightly different inclinations…

Note this can also apply for skills.talents.

2. When selecting Additional Standard Kit options, can a player opt to not take a piece of kit that would override an existing piece of gear?

Example: the 714th are interested in switching their lascarbines for shotguns. But about half the squad doesn't really want to lose the carbine. The same half is willing to let the others spend the points to get the guns, but would prefer to not switch out their carbines. Can a regiment have a mixed main weapon? Once again, as a GM I am willing to let this one go as well, as it would seem more effective to provide both options (although it would be logistically more difficult).

Unfortunatly the text about regiment creation doesn’t outright say it, but when looking at the example regiment it seems the characteristics bonus is determed with the creation and is the same for all. But the talents always have the or options included so you could chose per player character. I think the standard kit is a standard kit and the imperium is not known for flexibility so I think all or nothing on this one.

Scott_0606 said:

The choice of shotguns was entirely deliberate. The individual regiment write-ups represent specific regiments, rather than generic versions of the Elysians, Cadians, etc (you'll note that the example Cadian regiment - the 99th - is a Mechanised Infantry regiment, for example), so I was able to make choices that might in some cases have been unusual. The choice of shotguns was inspired by the original appearance of Elysian regiments, in the background of the 3rd Armageddon War global campaign (all those years ago), where they were mentioned (and shown in accompanying artwork) as commonly using shotguns - in essence, this was a nod to that original appearance.

To give the starting knife the mono quality either requires going Hardened Fighters to get the quality (At the loss of a doctrine that gives an aptitude), or to drop 10 points for a scare item. For 8 points could get you a whole chainsword, something markedly better than the knife. Obviously, weapon training is an issue, but anyone who is interested in using it already has half the required aptitudes (general/finesse) for the weapon training. Nor would it negate the knife as part of the kit.

This seems slightly off to me. Primitive is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, so I'm not too concerned, but still, it would be nice to be able to get the upgrade for cheaper as a part of standard kit (maybe 3-5 points). Sadly, that cheapens the usefulness Hardened Fighters (which probably needs a boost anyway. All those non aptitude doctrines need something, its impossible to argue against long term XP efficency).

Right now applying mono is of the same point value as upgrading the kit's piece of armour to best quality (great when the standard kit is full guard flak armour, half weight helps those with poor TB+SB, and +1 AP is amazing). Might I recommend changing the best craftsmanship upgrade to also require it be good quality to start with?

EDIT: Probably would have been good to read the new knife profile before I posted that. Knives are no longer primitive. Still, Spears are. The intent is to actually encourage the use of bayonet/melee attachments, so access to a mono knife is nice.

The Elysian shotgun versus lascarbine struck me as odd too. The regiment text notes that they will often have trouble with supplies due to being stuck behind enemy lines… and then they shun the logistician's wet dream of a weapon? Huh.

Regarding SP weapon training, I suppose the easiest option would be to give every specialty that has only Las training the choice of "Las or SP". I'm all for letting characters pay for being special snowflakes, but if their regiment wields SP weapons, being incapable of using them while mastering the unused lasgun really makes no sense.

Scott_0606 said:

I sort of agree with the Elysian points. They are primarily known for using bullpups and lascarbines over shotguns. Saying that, close support veterans and combat engineers would favour shotguns over the general las weaponry issued to 'normal' regimental troops.

On the topic of shotguns, I don't quite understand why the Weapon Specialist has the option of taking a common shotgun. A bog standard, single shot shotgun when put as an option seems a very underwhelming compared to the good-craft lasgun option he can take never mind the meltagun . If this was a Combat shotgun like the Elysians apparently use it would be a much more appealing option.

The choice of shotguns was entirely deliberate. The individual regiment write-ups represent specific regiments, rather than generic versions of the Elysians, Cadians, etc (you'll note that the example Cadian regiment - the 99th - is a Mechanised Infantry regiment, for example), so I was able to make choices that might in some cases have been unusual. The choice of shotguns was inspired by the original appearance of Elysian regiments, in the background of the 3rd Armageddon War global campaign (all those years ago), where they were mentioned (and shown in accompanying artwork) as commonly using shotguns - in essence, this was a nod to that original appearance.

Ah yeah. I remember the artwork your talking about.

I did notice that the Cadians and Mordians were from specific mechanised/armoured regiments but the Elysians still struck me as odd at first. Makes a bit more sense now if the old pics were the inspiration.