Hello, all.

First, I joined today, but I am a big fan of the Dark Heresy, Black Crusade, and Deathwatch series. I've not played in a RPG but I have almost all the handbooks. Lots of good story potential and wide amount of material here.

Second, I have already performed a search and did not find an original topic based on my question. Please don't shoot the n00b if the question has already been asked.

Ok. Now that's over, I know that most of the Primarchs are dead, but there are some that are thought to be MIA. It might be considered Heretical, but (looks over shoulder to see if the Inquisition is nearby….nobody expects the Inquisition!), but exactly how should a GM present a story about an actual, living, breathing Primarch? Now I know that pre-Ascended characters trying to fight a Primarch will end quite messily, and Ascended characters themselves might wind up worse for wear, but - if possible - it is likely that even a Primarch could wind up dead at the hands of a player (and probably earn a Kill on Sight bounty from the Primarch's Space Marine chapters affiliated with that primarch, OMG, what a story that would be).

Now we know that Space Marines are tough as nails, but there's a lot of really nasty stuff out there that's just (*coughs) as…erm, maybe just hazardous. Daemon Princes, Tyranids…bad, bad juju. Sooo, c'mon. Will there be a Primarch sourcebook? What are the stats of one of the Emperor's own sons? If one is introduced, exactly how should the NPC Imperium react to the news that one has been found? Would the High Lords of Terra feel threatened and seek his death? Could even a Primarch demand his way in to the inner chamber and see his father's remains on the Golden Throne? How would rival Space Marines view an enemy (but Loyalist) Primarch? Or should such questionsjust be left to the imagination?

Furthermore, I'm curioius about Artefacts of the Imperium. What would have happened to Horus' sword after his battle with the Emperor? I imagine another hungry Chaos warrior would have tried to sieze anything powerful for himself; else, such things would be considered lost and/or thought destroyed. What rulebooks can exist for GMs to fashion items once weilded by the Emperor and his Sons, from the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy aftermath? Last, is it possible that a player's own deeds can allow them to fashion a weapon that may become legendary itself? (I image such process would require certain pre-req traits or talents, rare materials, and probably a huge amount of Fate points and experience "donated" to the weapon itself).

Thanks for listening!

First, welcome to the forums and the game! Always good to see new blood.

Frankly, I think you're seriously underestimating the badassitude of a full-grown, 10000+ year old, genetically "perfect" humanoid that stands a good 9 feet tall. Yes, there are lots of things out there that are probably roughly as scary… but the sheer concentration of force (alongside an inhuman speed and skills matched only by gods and avatars of conflict) means a Primarch will tear through **** near any opponent up to and even beyond a Greater Daemon in single combat.

Consider the hundreds, possibly thousands, of battles that just about every single Primarch survived pre-Heresy. They were facing foes with technology that equalled or exceeded that of the Imperium of Man's golden age. They were facing Greater Daemons, including Bloodthirsters, in single combat… and winning. At least one beat to death an Avatar of Khaine with his gauntleted hands.

…And you think something as relatively mundane as a handful of Inquisitorial agents, even veterans, are going to be able to successfully take a Primarch out on their own? I'd consider a veteran Deathwatch Kill Team, armed with every possible relic, to be practically going on a suicide mission if their target were a Primarch. They're just THAT badass.

OK, now that that is out of the way, to your other questions. How would the Imperium react to a returning Primarch? I'd imagine the Lords of Terra would be not be thrilled to have their works judged by a Son of the Emperor, but they've weathered that before, and almost all the Primarchs would consider it hubris at best (and akin to the traitorous Horus at worst) to try to take the mantle of control over the vast Imperium of Man. There would certainly be some High Lords of Terra that might violently object to the return of a Primarch and the change to the status quo that might affect. I wouldn't be surprised if a small faction of the High Lords, if they learned of the Primarch before it became any better known than a high-level (i.e. Grey Knight-esque) secret, tried to "remove" the Primarch from the equation. I'd think capture would be preferred, but again, given the target, they might just have to kill him (it's the only way to be sure…), especially given there would be no guarantee that a returned Primarch would still remain loyalist. Most, if not all, of the MIA loyalist primarchs have been wandering the Eye for thousands of years. if there's one thing the Heresy showed the Imperium, it's that Primarchs are not beyond corruption. I would imagine, despite the bad blood that might occur, that the Adeptus Custodes would require the Primarch to be unarmed, unarmored, and scanned genetically, physically, and psychically for any threat to the Emperor's mortal frame… if they allowed him at all.

As far as rival Space Marine chapters go, they are all ultimately loyalists… and Primarchs are, by each and every description of them in the Heresy novels (again, and again, and again, and… well, you get the idea), INCREDIBLY charming and awe-inspiring in presence. The Space Wolves would still be respectful of Lion el'Johnson, even if it was a grudging respect. Visa versa for the Dark Angels and Leman Russ. Above all else, they are PRIMARCHS, nothing less than the genetic and spiritual successors of the Emperor/Allfather himself. Only corruption and treason, like that of the Daemon Prince Primarchs, would engender any sort of violent response, in my opinion.

Concerning the issue of Artifacts, while many of the items Primarchs and the Emperor Himself utilized were of almost incomparable manufacture, some will have been lost, some destroyed, some stored by the First Founding chapter awaiting the Primarch's return, and some used by those same Chapters by their most legendary members. Generally speaking, I'd guess most of those artifacts would surpass the power (and thus stats) of the most potent of relics found in the Deathwatch RPG books… but not by a particularly significant margin. Increasing effectiveness of the tools of war is going to be exponentially more costly and difficult, while the boost to effectiveness will almost certainly plateau.

I find the concept of Player Character weapons/armor/tools becoming legendary and of relic quality to be absolutely awesome if done correctly, so I'd encourage you as a DM to find ways to make the transition from "weapon of the line" to "weapon of a legend" to be suitably epic. Rare Materials seem like a good way to start. If the DM were to work in, say, minor damage to the weapon/armor/tool, that could be a great excuse to reward the eventual success with an upgrade in the form of a repair. Fate Points and XP both seem appropriate costs. I might even require as part of the cost the renown gained in the process of making the weapon, rather than the Space Marine wielding it, the legend. In terms of designing the nature of the changes, I doubt there will be anything but the roughest of guides. Your best bet would be to check out other relics and balance the newly-Legendary weapon/armor/tool against previous examples. When in doubt, I'd suggest being conservative - some of the higher power relics have their Legendary nature and quality expanded upon over dozens of Space Marine lifetimes. Baby steps, neh?

Concerning the Primarch stats… well, purely my opinion, but I'd consider Primarchs to be inhuman in just about every possible category (Minimum of Unnatural Characteristic (x2) in every stat) with a minimum of Unnatural Strength and Unnatural Toughness at x3. Particular Primarchs will undoubtedly have particular strengths, which would probably be represented by higher base stats rather than higher unnatural characteristics. Any Primarch that has survived to the 41st millenium will probably have a Weapon Skill rivaling a Bloodthirster and be able to match shots with a Vindicare, perhaps higher if that Primarch focuses on that particular type of combat. Regardless of age or experience, just about any Primarch will have a genius level of Intelligence (except perhaps Russ, and he'd be at least above-average, alongside an unmatched level of cunning that would be more of an instinctual intelligence anyway) and amazingly high fellowship. Their ability to react would probably rival all but the most capable of Eldar. Like Space Marines, they would probably be "Hulking" sized, aside from the naturally giant Primarchs (Can't think of any loyalists, but both Magnus the Red and Angron were probably a step up from Hulking, even before becoming Daemon Princes). They, like their lesser Space Marine "progeny", would not grant the additional bonus to attack from size (again, aside from the naturally giant Primarchs, who would still probably be treated as Hulking rather than… what is it, Enormous?) but still gain the other benefits, like movement speed.

My only real issue with presenting Primarchs in an RPG lke this is the same I have with an opponent like Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes of Tzeentch. No matter how smart of a DM you have, they will not be presented with the proper level of intelligence/cunning/perception/anticipation/deception/etc.

(I'll post a reply later on, cause my games [a RT, DW and DH game that are all set in the same universe/timeline] all revolve around the concept of the return of the primarchs, this is just a small thing I needed to add).

1.) Sanguinius killed in single combat the King of the Bloodthirsters and wounded a creature channelling all four of the Chaos gods. Primarchs are not able to be represented with the rule mechanics that FFG have provided.

2.) The shortest Primarchs (Leman Russ and "Alpharius") are listed as being the size of a large space marine. The average primarch (Horus, Rouboute Gulliman) are listed as being half again the size of a space marine. The tallest (Mortarion, originally Corax but after Gav Thorpe character assassinated him in Deliverence Lost I'm no longer certain) were twice the height of an astartes. 9 feet barely covers it for most of those crazy bastards! Also, let's leave Magnus the Red out of the discussion… he's either tall and far away or short and close - either could vary depending on the circumstance, regardless of the constant height of the primarch and the distance between you. Damned witches.

I would not try to closely-stat a Primarch. They would effectively have every Talent and Skill they could possibly want. They should pretty much only be killable by plot (and by that I also mean a KT thinking soundly…a lascannon sniper is not going to one-shot a Primarch IMO). I'd play it more as a force of nature than as a real character.

Kshatriya said:

Given Fulgrim - a second or third tier combat primarch - choked out an Avatar of Khaine with his bare hands and was interested to see he had blisters. Lascannon sniper isn't going to do the trick.

Minor quibble: it's incorrect to state that most of the Primarchs are dead. There were twenty. Two were erased from Imperial records, leaving 18. Sanguinius, Dorn, Horus, Curze, and Ferrus Manus are confirmed dead. That leaves 13. Alpharius may or may not be dead, but even so there's still Omegon. So five dead, two erased, one questionable. That accounts for eight. Of the other 12… one is in stasis, one is in a coma, six are Daemon Princes, one disappeared into the Webway, two headed for the Eye of Terror, and one disappeared- presumed to have headed to the Eye as well. So more than half are not confirmed dead.

That said, I'd never attempt to actually stat a Primarch. The Daemon Prince Primarchs (Angron, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Magnus, Mortarion, and Perturabo) would be to a normal Daemon Prince what a Bloodthirster is to a Bloodletter, if not a Great Unclean One to a Nurgling. To put it into perspective, during the first war for Armageddon, it took 109 veteran Grey Knight Paladin Terminators to banish Angron. 96 of them died doing it, and the banishment wasn't permanent (100 years and a day is a long time, but it'll end). Aside from Dorn, all of the fallen Primarchs were either killed by other Primarchs, the Emperor Himself, or allowed a Callidus assassin to kill them. As for Dorn, he fell while tanking an entire Chaos battleship, so he's forgiven. In short, Primarchs don't need stats. Remember, if you give it stats, your players can kill it, and not even a Rank 8 Kill-Team decked out in relics and power fields would be able to drop one. They've fought worse.

Gaire said:

Even then, that Dorn is dead has been debated - apparently his dead body encased in amber has been replaced with "his hands were discovered, severed, and of Dorn himself there was no sign". Unless they changed it back again and I missed it somewhere.

professor_kylan said:

No idea, to be honest. I've heard both, and you know how notoriously vague GW is on this sort of thing.

Gaire said:

As a completely unbiased Imperial Fist player, I doubt Lord Dorn, favoured son of the Emperor of Mankind and victor of the Siege of Terra, can even BE killed.

…

…

…

Because shut up, that's why!

professor_kylan said:

Well, the Spiritual Liege is apparently healing in stasis, so… sure, why not?

Of the loyalist Primarchs, I think the only two that are dead, dead, dead, never coming back, are Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius. The others are either missing, in a satte of dubious fluff, or dead and getting better. The only confirmed dead amongst the traitors are Horus and Night Haunter, with the others being variously daemons, daemon planets, or dead but presumed laughing and twiddling an evil mustache.

professor_kylan said:

Weeeeeell… there is the Sanguinor. One of the leading theories is that he's actually Sanguinius ascended into some sort of warp spirit. A Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince of the Emperor, as it were.

Gaire said:

Jerk - now you make me want to make a 40k army in 6th ed - Sisters of Battle with allied Blood Angels. DO the Sisters up as the Brides of the Emperor, Blood Angel Honour guard up as Custodies and use the Sanguinor as Sebastian Thor. **** you, Gaire! (Yes, you get the blame for this)

professor_kylan said:

You're welcome. Good luck affording it.

Gaire said:

Quiet you.

Although now I'm thinking Age of Apostasy DW game…

professor_kylan said:

Mite b cool.

A few cents to add to the existing comments.

Leman Russ shouldn't be significantly less intelligent than other primarchs. His manner was crude and a bit barbaric but there is evidence that hid a lethally cunning mind.

Statswise, I don't think any primarch should have less than Unnatural Characteristics in any attribute and a number of levels in it for their specialties. But honestly, a primarch is so powerful I'd be inclined to leave them as "walking plot point" and not something that can be gunned down by trigger happy players or NPCs. They're simply too powerful, each able to kill the mightiest of greater daemons and swathes of space marines. Let alone the huge impact knowledge of one being active in the Imperium would have. All sorts of organisations would be interested for the reasons described above and more. For example, a particularly ambitious Imperial or traitor faction might get it into their head to create new astartes directly from primarch geneseed - with or without their consent.

The primarch-level relics should be more powerful than the DW relics, but not by orders of magnitude. They would have serious bonuses (or penalties) to fellowship tests with certain groups, especially astartes and traitor legions *if* they could be found/released by their chapters. Generally these sort of items are handled by chapter masters or leaders of massive warbands, if at all.

Creating a relic in campaign is a cool idea but I can't see FFG bringing out any more detail on that. The forgemaster specialty has Trade (Forge Master) but that alone wouldn't be sufficient to create an outright relic.