man this class is broken…

I look at the standard issue gear for catachan jungle fighters and they can't use anything!

best quality sword would be great -> not proof

Las carbine -> not proof

knife -> not proof

smoke grenades -> not proof

primer -> can't read

basic toolkit -> if you can't use any melee weapon but a giant hammer, a warhammer or a truncheon, I guess you can't use that

grapnel -> dito

stummer -> dito

the item-use is not RAW but for me it's common sense. if you can't throw anything but frag grenades, or destroy heavy-bolters when trying to use them, you can't use any item created for human usage.

IMHO somehow they need to change that clumsy / proof thing. it's just not fun.

how about folling specials:

first scrap the comrade.

BONE'ead
1000 exp
passive
gives 5 permanent Int, +10 Fel vs ogryns and +10 on the command roll for "But It Dark in Der!"

Big'n'Strong
Unnatural Strength andUnnatural Toughness can be further improved. Cost is dependend on the Rating you would want to achieve: Rating x200 exp.So from Unnatural 3 to 4 it will cost 800exp, from 4 uf 5 1000exp etc.

Maximum would be the unmodified SB and TB.

Bodyguard
300exp
reaction
Like the storm trooper special but for player characters. When ever a player character in 5m gets hit by a shot and reduced to 0 wounds or less, the ogryn can attempt to eat that shot by making a challenging AGI test. Damage is then rolled to the ogrys body location instead.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Aaand agreed on all points.

By the way, the Errata has added some wounds and subtracted some Agility. Still nothing on the Unnatural front, though…

Yeah…. 10 more wounds base is pretty nice.

10 wounds for 10 agility. That's a good trade.

Definitely a good step in the right direction.

I still think they need some way to buy new unnaturals though, or to be set at unnatural 4 from the get go. As even on 4 they'll be weaker than an Ork Warlord (which they're supposed to be as strong as)

don't wanna sound like a whiny ***** but -10 AGI puts the nail in the coffin for:

pretty much

Tier1: Ambidextrous (30), Disarm (30), Catfall (30), Leap Up (30), Unarmed Warrior (35)

most definitly

Tier 2: Hard Target (40), Hotshot Pilot (40), Deflect Shot (50), Hip Shooting (40), Unarmed Master (40), Rapid Reaction (40)

Tier 3: Preternatural Speed (50), Step Aside (40)

A standard Ogryn has now 21 Agi… to get to 30 you need to spend 2000exp on AGI advances (unless you get an Agi aptitude from somewhere).

to get to 35 you need to spend 3750exp

and to get to 40 you need 6250exp

50 you will never get unless you rolled a 20 at char creation and if you rolled under 10 you are SOL.

do please FFG tell me, what fun is it to play a character who:

gets robbed of almost more then 1/3 of all skills (11 are int based)

90% of all equipment

a lot of nice talents (unarmed warrior and master must hurt the most, as does step aside for two parry, ambidex for dual wielding (well he can't dual wield anything because there is no one handed melee weapon for ogryns anyway, but would have been nice for unarmed combat)

and their ability to go where they want?

vogue69 said:

The fun parts are:

1. Being an Ogryn.

2. Having better Strength and Toughness than anyone else in the game.

3. Having more hit points than a starting Space Marine.

4. Being an Ogryn.

5. Having one of the most awesome guns in the game as standard issue.

6. Having access to Autocannon and being able to fire it from the hip like a total badass.

7. Smashing people into pulp with your standard issue gun in melee.

8. Did I mention being an Ogryn?

Seriously, though, playing as an Ogryn is not an optimal choice, but can be a very fun one. You're a giant manchild whose only viable option is using brute force, and failing that, using even more brute force. This can be a very cathartic experience - forget finesse, forget tactics, just pick the biggest enemy you can find and beat the **** out of him with the butt of your standard issue gun.

vogue69 said:

I'm getting a bit tired of this argument but anyway.

Ogryns were never meant to be agil, fast, of rapid reaction, good at jumping or falling, good at driving vehicles or jumping out of harms way.
You complaints all seem to revolve around the facts that

1) you don't see the appeal in the Ogryn.

2) you want the Ogryn to be something he is not.

1) is perfectly fine.I don't see the appeal of playing a bookworm (that is playing a DH Adept) either but that does't mean that I will complain and hope that the Adept gets changed into something that I would want to play (like an Arbitrator) since the two are obviously meant for different types of players and tastes.

2) The Ogryn is a meatshield. A very good meatshield. If you want to play a meatshield and enjoy having a character that is very simple in his decisions than you can play an Ogryn. That is what the Ogryn is for. Obviously you don't seem to enjoy playing such a character. That is fine but this doesn't mean that the Ogryn should be something that he isn't.

Now there are a few arguments here that I think are prefectly valid. For example I think it's really sad that an Ogryn would have a hard time getting Unarmed Warrior and Unarmed Warrior, both talents that fit very well into the idea of a big hunk of meat that just bashes his enemies into the ground. In general though most of the Talents you listed simply do not fit into the idea of what an Ogryn is. It's like trying to make a (DH) Techpriest that is a charmer.

It's simply not what the class is supposed to be.

There's one more thing that you bring up that I actually find reasonable. An Ogryn is only capable of using a very limited arsenal of weapons and gear. For someone that is so focused around being large and tough this does feel a bit disapointing. I understand that only a few weapons would be, as the book calls it Ogryn proof but it would be nice if there was some weapon customization that allowed certain types of weapons (like maybe heavy type) to become Ogryn proof (at some drawback as with the other customizations).

@Vogue

Unarmed is indeed rather sad and will hopefully see a change in prerequisites that make them more Ogryn-friendly (perhaps a simple "Size Hulking", to account for our friendly neighbourhood Ork Nobz as well?). The rest of the talents… meh. You didn't really look them over, did you?

Ambidextrous is for those who don't use guns that can be used as clubs without regret. Disarm… 30 Agi is still reachable and most Ogryns would probably understand something different (and involving a little more gore) when ordered to. Catfall.. who cares about falling with 25+ wounds? Leap up is nice for combat, but I don't see Ogryns falling down too often and wouldn't picture them as Harlequin'esque acrobats anyway. Hard Target is useful, but not exactly likely. Hotshot Pilot I'm not even going to comment. Deflect Shot is not truly important either - I don't see too many primitive weapons going through the Armour, Toughness and Wounds of an Ogryn. Hip Shooting is just another thing getting in the way of a nice Charge. Rapid Reaction is useful, but not something I'd associate with the lumbering brute that is an Ogryn. Preternatural Speed… the same. And finally Step Aside - always helpful, but then again, that's where the +10 wounds come in.

As for the final question: Tell me who plays an Ogryn to engage in intellectual games, wield sophisticated equipment and squeeze their humungous bulk into the dark corners of the earth. If I wanted to play an Ogryn (and I think it would be fun to do so for a one-shot, though probably not for a whole campaign), I really wouldn't bother with those and instead try my hand at the game "How many challenges in the mission can be accomplished or bypassed by brute force, the threat of brute force or aiding my friends sophisticated approach with some good old brute force?".

(Also: What Morangias and Musclewizard said.)

@Musclewizard

It's like trying to make a (DH) Techpriest that is a charmer.

Funny you should say that, because that's exactly what I did once. Nobleborn techpriest with the social alternate rank from the IH and a father that made sure his son got reasonably good- und human-looking versions of implants so he could bear to look at him. It worked surprisingly well, especially because most people were so thrown-off by a social techpriest… Of course, the lack of Fellowship advancements would have bitten me sooner or later in my shiny metal posterior, but we didn't play long enough for that to become a real issue.

it's not like I want them to be balerinas. But they have a penalty of 25 points! That is just insane.

I can tell you what I want if I play an ogryn. A hulking brute charging into battle wielding 2 giant chainswords or axes, decimating foes left and right.

to offset those penalties they should have stuff like Natural Armour 4, unnatural str/tg 4, Brutal Charge 3, Fear (1), and so forth.

10 more wounds just don't cut it for me. sure it's nice but everyone will be shooting at you. and a tb of 6 with body and head armor of 3 will not make you immune to any kind of damage. and you will get hit. a lot. and you won't dodge. ever.

so what I want to say: they got the penalties right, but the goodies aren't anywhere near up to par.

vogue69 said:

That I can actually agree to. As stated earlier in this thread the Ogryns strength doesn't scale. He starts with UT and US at +2 and it stays at that forever. The same goes for most of his other benefits.

+1 Wound is a lot if you have 10

+1 Wound isn't all that much if you have 30.

Vogue69:

>it's not like I want them to be balerinas. But they have a penalty of 25 points! That is just insane

They lose 25 points total from two attributes, that's true. And it sounds insane… if one takes it out of context, like you just did. That context being, they also get +20 total to two other stats, +13 starting Wounds above the next most buff Specialty, and generally one of the most loaded starting packages full of advantages completely unique to them.

>I can tell you what I want if I play an ogryn. A hulking brute charging into battle wielding 2 giant chainswords or axes, decimating foes left and right.

That's… very specific. It appears you have envisioned a particular build and now criticize the game for not being able to represent it. Which, again, seems taken out of the greater context of the thread. Building an Ogryn who's up to your specification is either very hard or downright impossible, but does it mean the Ogryn is badly written, or unplayable, or generally not fun to play?

Now, I'm not saying the answer to any of these questions is a definite "no". I haven't had the chance to playtest the Ogryn yet, all my opinions are conjecture based on the understanding of the system. What I'm saying is, "It can't dual-wield so it sucks" isn't very helpful in determining whether the Ogryn "works" as a character choice.

>to offset those penalties they should have stuff like Natural Armour 4, unnatural str/tg 4, Brutal Charge 3, Fear (1), and so forth

Again, that's pretty arbitrary. I agree with some of the suggestions, but I really don't see the reason for giving them a Fear Rating, or Natural Armor. Brutal Charge is also quite weird, as it's something of a poor man's Unnatural Strength, reserved for when the creature really does a lot more damage while charging than with other forms of attack - something I don't really see in the case of Ogryns.

>10 more wounds just don't cut it for me. sure it's nice but everyone will be shooting at you. and a tb of 6 with body and head armor of 3 will not make you immune to any kind of damage. and you will get hit. a lot. and you won't dodge. ever.

That's ten more wounds on top of them already having three more wounds on average then the Storm Trooper, who in turn gets two more wounds on average than the likes of Heavy Gunners or Sergeants… you get the picture.

Disregarding both the Ogryn and the Ratling as abnormalities, the average number of starting wounds for human characters is about 9+d5, closer to 8+d5 if we only account for Guardsmen proper and disregard the auxiliaries. Compared to that, Ogryn's 25+d5 is a really big deal. That's over twice the average, still over twice the next best Specialty in that regard, and even better than Space Marines get in Deathwatch! That many Wounds are bound to make a difference.

You won't be dodging anything anytime soon, that's correct. With the penalty to Agi, penalty to Dodge from Size and expensive advancements of both Dodge and Agility itself, it's generally not worth it. What you can do, though, is max out your Toughness ASAP (which is really dirt cheap - buying all four Advances will cost you 1600 exp, that's four session's worth assuming the standard abstract reward for a session lasting four hours), slap Frenzy on top of it for another +1 TB, and enjoy the ability to buy more extra wounds than anybody else, for a comfortable 200 exp a pop. Combine it with True Grit, and the enemy can die of old age before he manages to incapacitate you. Furthermore, if in doubt, charge the enemy! They won't be shooting at you when you stomp them into the ground, and you can use your Reaction for either Furious Assault or Parry+Counterattack, rather than complaining that you cannot dodge. All options I've mentioned are cheap for you, by the way. As in, two Aptitudes cheap.

>so what I want to say: they got the penalties right, but the goodies aren't anywhere near up to par.

That, I can understand. And I have to say, I like some of the options you've proposed earlier. Generally speaking, if I'm sacrificing so much for the sake of being the dumb brute, I want the "brute" part to be strong enough to make up for it. At this point, the Ogryn is quite okay at being a big, tough meatshield, but I believe he could be even better at it without unbalancing the game too much, given all his other limitations.

Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't it make sense, with the Ripper gun moving up to the Heavy class, to start Ogryn characters with Bulging Biceps? Or just make a note about Unnatural Strength automatically granting Bulging Biceps. Also, I agree that the Ogryn needs some way to boost his Unnaturals during play a bit. Back in the original trilogy of games, Unnaturals were always beneficial. Down the line on that Ogryn, having +2 to your Strength bonus when you've got a base bonus of 6 or 7 and your buddy Catachan has a base bonus of 5 or 6? It doesn't really play into the whole 'stronger den muhreens' thing.

vogue69 said:

I like this idea, especially the solution for raising the unnaturals; it's simple yet fleshes everything out well. I could see this being an easy implementtion to retain Ogryn in OW.

Gaire said:

I asked the same thing but then someone pointed out that Ogryn count as auto-stabilized and don't need bulging biceps. I would have preferred to see bulging biceps as it sounds better in my head, but I won't complain too hard about it.

Darklordofbunnies said:

Haderp. Reading comprehension fail on my part.

By the way, what happened to the awesome trait the Ogryn in the demo adventure had which made all his melee attacks concussive? That'd go a long way towards emphasizing just how much of a punch the Ogryn is packing without blowing the sheer numbers out of proportion.

Morangias said:

+1

Shadow Walker said:

It's not a Trait, it's a Talent. It's called Hammer Blow, and it's been in 40kRP since Deathwatch.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You are right N0-1_H3r3. So now you just need to give Hammer Blow to an Ogryn as one of his starting talents. Another step to make Ogryn speciality closer to fluff [this plus S/T unnaturals of 5 ].

My mistake. I was thinking about the trait the renegade Ogryns have in DW Achilus Assault. Unlike Hammer Blow, it gave all their melee attacks the Concussive quality.

I've just had a thought… instead of the -15 Int modifier as it currently is, would it perhaps be better if Ogryns only had -5 modifier, and instead had a flat -20 modifier to all Lore checks (other than Imperial Guard and War)? That'd mean they'd not be animal-level stupid, but they'd still be essentially retarded (as they pretty much are) in all intellectual pursuits other than those directly related to the IG?

MILLANDSON said:

This might be a good step. However restricting it to lore skills might be problematic. For example I'd imagine that Ogryns would have a hard time at Medicae or Logic as well. On the other hand they might be quite good at survivel or other skills.

How about this solution. The Ogryn starts with a trait / talent that gives him a -X penalty to all intelligence (or most, see above) based skill tests.
For Y Exp you can get the BONE Augmentation and that removes or weakens said penalty either completly or on certain skills (for example you could leave it Scholastic Lores)

What about all Intelligence-based skills other than Common Lore (War) and (Imperial Guard) then? And the BONE implant removes it for some other skills? Survival is a Perception-based skill, so that wouldn't be affected by the -20 modifier.

The more I'm going over it, the more I think this and -5/-10 Int would work better than the flat -15 Int modifier.