Shadow Walker said:

Except that even THOSE stats are used by the writers to help dictate the relative power!

ANY time an Ogryn has ever shown up in any of the dozens of BL books or even just fluff in the margins I've read, a single one often kills 2-3 members of the Marine's tactical squad. Or at least injures a few bad enough to put them out of the fight (Much more common). Put simply, even in the fluff they are Larger AND Stronger than a Marine. Not better fighters by any means, just larger, tougher, and stronger than a Marine in Power Armor.

For that matter, high powered orks are as well, again, not as skilled necessarily, but always said to be nearly as tough as a Marine… the biggest ones are the size of Ogryn. But Ogryn are STILL supposed to be as strong and tough as the biggest Orks. Yes, as strong and tough as the Ork Warbosses. the ones in this game can't even match up to the Ork Stormboys! Let alone a Marine.

Ogryn are big, dumb, monsters. Marines are highly skilled professional soldiers. That's the difference, the Marine has skills, but not the size.

I'm going to put a summation here of things that would generally make Ogryn better so that people don't have to go back and read everything and so that I can get an accurate tally of good suggestions to email in after the errata change Point out anything that I miss.

1)Allow increase in Unnaturals, possibly depending on rank like Psy Rating.

2)Add a slug option to the ripper gun, probably using Hostile Acquistions rules.

3)Change the Int penalty to -5(-10?) but add a large penalty(-20) Lore checks.

4)Scrap the comrade, it doesn't fit and balances the other buffs.

5)Add ripper saw stats(or use it as a mod).

6)Add weights for Ogryn armor. Maybe an Ogryn specific armor.

I'd also add in some sort of means to implement the Bone ' ead enhancement.

Tremere777 said:

I believe it's represented by buying Int advancements. An Ogryn with average Int of 15 can boost himself to a rather high Int of 35 if he's willing to spend a crapton of exp on it - clearly it represents heavy cognitive implantation, otherwise I'm not really seeing it.

That said, I think I agree that making them take a smaller Int penalty but a big penalty to important Int-based rolls is better than dumping their base stat to oblivion.

Frankly, I'd give them a base Int of 19+d5 and prohibit them from buying Advancements altogether. But that breaks system symmetry…

I'd buy that if cybernetics and bionics hadn't already been included in the game.

@Tremere

There already are some implants that are talents rather than equipment.

I didn't say I was opposed to making it a talent. Did I?

I just don't want to see it…become an imaginary, assumed component of purchasing intelligence advances.

Subskin armor has been included as an available cybernetic "purchase"…shall we remove that and say, hey..just purchase a toughness advance and we'll call it a bionic upgrade?

What about synthmuscle and strength advances?

No. I'm fine with making it an Ogryn only talent…but it should NOT be simply subsumed into intelligence advances.

well there are no further ogryn changes, which sucks big time.

vogue69 said:

Probably because they need time to figure out and test things, to see what the best changes would be.

Surely you'd prefer solid changes, rather than half-arsed ones that get changed multiple times during the beta, right?

Tremere777 said:

Does any of these implants simply increase the Characteristic?

What functions do you envision BONE having beyond simply increasing the Ogryn's Int score?

Note that under the current rules it's theoretically possible to play an Ogryn with Int 45, Unnatural +2 and +20 to all Logic and Lore tests. I'm pretty sure anyone versed in 40k fluff would consider such a character a blasphemy, but it's possible to achieve.

Morangias said:

BONE mods don't increase an Ogryn's INT per say, they make him better able to interpret orders and exercise lateral thinking in a limited manner. It's more like lifting the blinkers and allowing him to use his brain in new ways more than making him have more brains; creativity over genius. It also is required ofr Ogryn to lead, so removing the FEL penalty and giving them command and basic tactics as skills would be a better representation. The fact is that BONE mods are augments, which have their own section in the book, and skill advances are not listed as augments and vice versa. I made the smart OGryn commander with all the brain enhancing cyberware I could shunt in his skull, it was ridiculously expensive but he had a 45 INT with a +6 bonus and a +20 to all lore and command tests. That doesn't excuse leaving out an iconic piece of Ogryn life with BONE mods, they deserve a mention somewhere.

Darklordofbunnies said:

If it works as you say it does, then logically all playable Ogryns are Bone'eads by default, as they use their (usually smaller) Int score in exactly the same way as normal human characters. Also, they don't have a Fel penalty, so it'd be hard to remove it.

MILLANDSON said:

Shouldn't we test things? I prefer 10 changes over 10 test runs to 1 change and time is over,

Morangias said:

Sorry, forgot about the FEL penalty existing in my head for the suggestions list. Also: what you describe is players using their INT score the same, not the Ogryn. Just because you allow players with the IQ of a squig to make decisions doesn't make that mechanically correct and any GM with a desire for RP integrity wouldn't allow it. Ogryn can barely speak without a BONE mod and most assuredly do not come up with plans or deviate from what orders they can actually comprehend.

Darklordofbunnies said:

Wrong. What I describe is the Ogryn being able to take all the actions that require an Int roll just like any other character, albeit with a smaller chance of success. Per the rules. This hypothetical Ogryn with Int 45 rolls his Int like any character with Int 45. Hypothetically, I could take this example further and build you an Ogryn with a 95% chance of passing a Logic or Tactica Imperialis test, which would put him amongst the greatest minds of the Imperium. His 75% score on Linguistics also makes him a rather sleek speaker.

Granted, this build is extremely unlikely to come up in play, because it takes thousands of exp spent on very expensive advancements. But it's possible, and that's a problem with the rules. The kind of limitations that you envision the BONE implant removing or alleviating do not exist in the current state of rules . The only thing enforcing the Ogryn as a dumb brute is his abysmal starting Int score and high cost to increase Int and related stuff. Which, as my example shows, doesn't necessarily work.

where is the ogryn love? page 3? please…

Darklordofbunnies said:

I would change 3 to read, Make Int. Penalty -10, but add a large -20 to all Int based skills. EDIT: Maybe -10 to Int skills? But I kind of like the idea that even if they get training in a skill it is only as good as a normal person's basic so I'd like keeping it -20 but that's just me.

The only Int based skill that they might not take the penalty on would be Navigate but I think it is based on using maps as much as just begin able to find your way so I'd still give it the penalty.

I'd add the Bone advance along with adding the increase to Unnatural Toughness and Strength to off set losing the comrades. I'd make the implant give +5 to Int and halve the penalty for using Navigate, Linguistics, and any Common Lore. This doesn't completely negate the -10 to starting Int or their penalty to skills but makes it clear that this ogryn is above average Int… for an ogryn.

I like 2, 4, 5, and 6

Does Fearless cancel out It Dark in dere?

I saw nothing concerning ogryns on the latest errata.