The one thing I wanted more then anything else in Only War, was a good squad system, but in this case we get Comrades, I like the idea overall but what we are given feels lacking.


They cant do anything without orders and hardly feel like, well, people. Even easly replaceable people. I think they need something to flush them out a bit more, hell even just one standard attack with the regiments basic weapon a round would be nice. You know its bad when players forget to ues there "Comrade bones"

Nothing bogs down an RPG as having to role for countless NPC's. So the comrade system fixing that is great.
I would love to see more options for comrades.
The comrades should be roleplayed by the GM since the players already have their own character, but the actions in combat and such scenes should be decided by the players mostly.

I'm still trying to grasp the Comrades rules myself. I can see them being played as fairly mindless redshirts, but at the same time I can see them played as interesting side characters too. The basic rules that define them are that they have a name and a personality… which I think could psychologically elevate them from "mindless drone" status by the simple fact that they have a name and a personality, not just "Trooper #7". In the end, it comes down to the players to give that name and personality life… not unlike their own character.

I think I'd like to see them expanded a little, using the Assistance rules for instance.

I think what would interesting would be adding squad abilities (separate from or adding to the ones for the Sergeant) on top of the Comrade system (like Deathwatch has both Solo and Squad abilities); the Comrades would then be able to contribute to the squad abilities and help the primary PC. For instance, if a squad ability is something like grenade barrage (letting everybody throw a grenade simultaneously), than you could let the Comrades also each throw a grenade (so you would end up with 7-8 grenades instead of 3-4, and probably a lot of mayhem).

I'm still grasping the hows and the whys of the comrade system, but I agree that the rules doesn't seem to work all that well.

I almost wish Comrades were a bit more Fragile, like more likely to take a 'deadly' wound in place of your PC or something. If only because it would help represent the horrible attrition of the Guard without it always being the PCs who die. As I recall that is one of the big criticisms people had when this was announced (If not here, then on places like RPGnet) - Guardsmen die in droves, they're not good PC options… well, this would help represent that!

Dulahan said:

I know as a GM I'm going to be killing off Comrades like Star Trek Redshirts and for the same reasons… "Hey, Trooper Bob just got eaten by a Terror Cat, I guess this jungle is dangerous!"

LuciusT said:

To be fair, the comrades are considered very important to the PCs' ability to combat things too, to the point they are balanced as such. So right now it is tough to say how killing them off would be.

Alright, I have been thinking about this for a while and I think I have a few ideas… Hear me out lol. Right off the bat I would love if the book put just a little info about the Comrades stats, like, 30 into all stats with basic regiment gear… just saying that some were would be nice.

I love the idea of killing off comrades often, after all guardsmen die! How about this… Give every player two comrades! You can give one order a turn and you need at least one comrade alive to use all your "cool" powers like the Heavy gunners loader! Or hell, put in a tier two talent or so that gives you another comrade, And now for the killing part. Every time a PC gets hit by a "righteous fury" attack, the GM can not deal and damage to the PC and just flat out kill a Comrade instead!

Now, To flush out the Comrades a bit, I really think they need SOMETHING they can do alone and not just sit around giving the PC's a small BS or WS buff. Perhaps… When ever the PC makes a attack, and he has a comrade alive and in cohesion that has not been given a order yet, that comrade makes his own attack!

Now to make sure its not going to bog the game down like Santiago was saying, Lets say that the comrade counts as having 30 to all stats (and any regiment bonuses, like +3 to bs) and makes a standard attack with the regiments basic weapon and counts as rolling what ever the PC just rolled.

*Example* The PC shoots at a ork, he has 45 BS, after everything he rolls a 33 and hits, his comrade counts as rolling a 33 as well and hits the ork with whatever weapon the regiment uses!

I'm just saying, that out of every warhammer 40k role play game so far, Only war really NEEDS to put a lot into Comrades! After all this is the Guard! "For every one of us that dies ten more will take his place!" and all that! hell, the way it stands now Death watch and Black crusade but even more into THERE minion systems (and my players cared way more about there minions)

I think using the Guardsman statline in the NPC page and applying modifiers based on the regiment works best.

I tend to agree. It just seems too… 'gamey' that a guy that's with me can fire his Lasgun at a tank to get my Meltagun a +5 To Hit.

I'd rather see them as Minions-Lite than 'Killable Bonuses'.

BYE

This ^^^

A thousand times this, I get that it speeds the game up but come on! dont make them just "forgettable BS buffs"

I also think what Comrades, as they are currently designed, need are more standard Orders you can give them. At the moment, it bascially comes down to Ranged Volley when you fire at something and Close Quarter when you atack something in melee. No choices at all. The situations in which the Specialty Orders come into play are usually rather specific (not to say they are bad, some are extremely useful indeed). Therefore I would think more Standard Orders that give the PCs multiple options how to use their Comrades in a ranged or melee fight would be good.

A 'Spotter' Order would be good.

Either your weapon counts as the range you're at, or they give a bonus to BS for each consecutive time you miss.

Now comrades system is a good idea which is not-so-nicely done

Reasons for that are simple -- by giving talents which improve comrades to PCs FFG actually kills their personality because the players don't actually care WHO is going with them as long as the know that "nameless trooper #7" is accompanying them

I would propose to add additional talents for comrades only and give them THEIR OWN XP. I think that would be best and i will try to explain why I think so:

First by saying additional talents to comrades I mean swithing comrade-improving talents from PC to comrades and expanding the list so an operator comrade could learn not only to (1)extinguish fire and (2)man additional weaponry but also to (3)work as a co-pilot adding some +10 or +20 to pilots skill

and (4)be vehicles technician and try to repair the vehicle (maybe even on the move)

Secondly I would like to mention that that wouldn't actually conflict with the "Everyone Dies" type of play because if comrades have their starting xp you could but one (but only one) of those talents like (3)co-pilot or (4)technician, but nevertheless that would make PCs actually care about their comrades because

Third comrades would improve over time gaining their own xp so if we look at the talents above (1, 2, 3 and 4) and imagine a situation where…

player John playing Operator first receives his comrade named Sully, right now he has his comrades starting xp, enough to pick only one talent for Sully. John thinks that as he is an operator of Vulture, which is first and foremost an attack craft he needs Sully to operate all those guns he couldn't handle otherwise by himself so he picks talent (2)weapon operator. After few sessions Johns gained some XP and so did Sully (though that should be like no more than 1/10th of PCs XP). So John decides to pick talent (3)co-pilot for Sully. During play Sully has been caught by orks so John has two options -- Rescue Sully for improving his main character two times more than a new comrade would (in-game: Rescue his comrade risking his life), or abandon Sully and get a fresh recruit which will improve his character way worse (in-game: turn a blind eye on what he has seen and return to base, nightmares of that day haunting him rest of his life)

Personally I think that would work, but it does need balancing between starting comrades that can do nothing by themselves and/or as to improve the PC and comrades that would outmatch PCs from start and/or Improve them to near-god status. Besides it needs balancing so that comrade-gaining-XP-system would work well for those that kill them on every turn and those who do care about them -- by that I mean to balance them so there would be a point of keeping them alive for prolonged periods of time but the death of one wouldn't be completely stat-fatal. More to say, as FFG didn't show the char generator (I mean things like hair colour and length, skin tone and so on) they're gonna do it in final so that if you want you can make completely unique and rememorable comrade, but if you don't need that just skip it, just like that.

More than that FFG has to announce more orders for comrades, and let the PCs abide them too (if they want). And of course expand comrade-controlling system -- at least one of ten players will want to go captain at the VERY least and in reality it'll be like "controlling as much troops as my GM permits" and that can go up to colonel-level easily, so that would be cool if someone would explain us how to handle THAT kind of comrade-quanity

P.S.: I would like to ask cause I didn't actually get it -- so Comrades have to pick career or not?

Santiago said:

I've been a couple other games where, as players, we shared some of the NPC roles, in addition to our own main character. Having the GM do voices for as many people as there are players PLUS their own NPCs… when I run OW with the Comrade rules (fleshed out, I'm sure), I'll be giving the opportunity to play other player's "sidekick" in addition to their own. It can be pretty heady at first, but I've seen people pick it up like a 20 on the ground.

At the very least, Comrades would use just a d10, testing their Characteristic Bonus, nothing else. And since I didn't like THAC0, and I have my gripes about the "roll low" concept, I might make players add the Bonus to the d10 vs DC 11, with bonuses and penalties being added to the roll. Or use a d20, or even d30 if you're really feeling granular, just divide the Characteristic by the right amount. Eh, I digress. Love the fluff in the 40k games, just wish it was a different system. Still playable, but… like I said, I digress, sorry.

Having to roleplay 5+ NPCs constantly who may die at the drop of a hat could be taxing.

Here's how I'm doing Comrades. They're subject to the same modifications of their regiment, just as a PC would be.

Attacking: Should your attack pass with atleast one degree of success, the Comrade counts as having hit the same target as well, using the same DoS minus one. The Comrade may attack as Standard, Autofire, Charge and Called Shot. This applies when doing Ranged Volley or Close Quarters Combat.

Injury: To become injured, the damage must exceed its’ TB and AP. Weapons that pass AP and still do twice the damage as the Guardsmans’ TB are just killed outright.

(Comrade) Guardsman
WS35 BS35 S35 T35 Ag35 Int28 Per31 WP25 Fel25
Movement: 3/6/9/18
Skills: Athletics (S), Awareness (Per), Linguistics (Low Gothic), Stealth (Ag), Operate (Surface)
Talents: As in the regiment.
Talents: Regiment
Weapons: Regimental Kit
Gear: Regimental Kit

I get the appeal of comrades as "pets" and equipment in a more "boardgame-friendly/mmo-esquen" gaming scenario. But in a roleplaying scenario and fluff-wise. Having one half of the squad giving orders to the other half of the squad just don`t seem right. There should be only one guy (or maybe two - if your squad is split in two teams) barking orders, and that is the sergeant (and of course the higher ups).

This has the same taste as the squad rule in DW, you cannot give ALL the players the option to give orders, that is not how military units work - and for a good reason. I like the idea of the Operator having a "Gunner" buddy - but why not make it another player? Same with the doc, why a NPC, when you can get another player to help you perform first aid etc.

Remember Schaeffers Last Chancer? You had Ox and Brains, you had Fingers and Rocket Girl.

Well long story short, I would love to see the comrade-system modularized, giving you the option to take a comrade or not, giving the sergeant the option to take more than one "comrade" or "cannon fodder" - making him the effective "runt-herder" of the group to utilize his "sweeping orders" better.

Camaraderie is something you have to build and not something you can but.

I think the thing to recognize is that PCs aren't neccesacirly giving "orders" to their comrade NPCs. The vocal requirement is more for communicating actions between each other, but otherwise, I think it should be considered that the comrades are just sticking with the PCs and being helpful. Yes, there are "order" actions. We call them that for our benefit, not because that is actually what they are. Comrades need to exist so as to help fill out a squad. And it would be interesting to let players function as some of the support roles comrades fulfill, it would be cumbersome for the system to try and allow either.

Fair point about the "orders" - being part of the "background" operation of every single character. But on the other hand, why NOT have a player bark orders to the comrade/PC. Sure, it may proof tricky from a social point of view, rather than a gameplay related, but in the end it IS a military oriented rpg.

For me, the comrade system gives player an additional gimmick that could proof more disrupting that helpful. But as always, I have to see/experience it myself to be a better judge.

You know, if Comrades wont be targeted much, why not give them wound pools? It makes them less expendable, meaning you can have a NPC that PCs build a relationship to.

I suspect that they are intended to and expected to die frequently…in order to reflect the grim nature of service in the imperial guard…

haveing just read that section last night I dont mind them not haveing wounds I do mind the fact that you dont even roll damage for them, a snotling doing 1d5 damage who would have no chance what so ever of hurting a guardsman in armor automaticlly wounds your comrade. not to mention you need to give them a special full round action to get into cover. I am seeing this horrible war movie moment where half the squad dives for cover whail the rest stand there like statues waiting for orders.

I don't care if they are not treated as full pc's but they should atleast act like moderatly intelligent trained soldiers.

The thing is, they're hit so rarely unless its a blast/spray weapon, I'm not too sure I'm concerned. Also, as the GM, if I feel that the attack wouldn't hurt them anyway, then just don't inform the players you rolled doubles.

The problem I have with Comrades is that there aren't enough orders for them.

Let's exclude special orders for now (which are well done but as the name implies are rather specific / special).
We have two offensive Orders. Give me a bonus in ranged / Give me a bonus in melee combat and a defensive one.
Of course the Game Master could always come up with his own rules but I think a few typical combat actions should be included.

So the Comrades are capable of:

• Helping in Melee
• Helping in Ranged
• Taking Cover

We obviously want to avoid having to roll for all types of stuff and waste time since than we might as well use a complete NPC profile.

So I think the abilties a Comrade needs are:

• Attacking in Melee (on their own, if the PC is with them it counts as helping in melee). Now I wouldn' have any roll here since a Comrade probably wouldn't be able to damage most enemies in melee anyway but sending a Comrade to their death against a rampaging Ork could save them a round or two.
• Attacking in Ranged (once again I'd like to avoid rolling for Damage but I'd like for the Comrades to be able to draw Fire / give supressive fire thus allowing the PCs to flank an enemy or just charge into the thick of battle). Maybe this Order would increase the Chance that the Comrade is hit instead of the player or potentially a single comrade (instead of only a single players comrade) would draw fire and everytime a Player would be hit there's a chance that that specific Comrade is hit instead.
• Drawing Fire / Supressive Fire (see Attacking in Ranged). Maybe we actually want Comrades to be able to deal damage. In this case they should also be able to "just" draw fire.
• Resuce an Ally / Comrade. Maybe not something that we need an Order for but let's imagine that the Stormtrooper charges into combat with his squad a dozen meters back in cover. The Stormtrooper gets knocked out and is unconcious. I'd like for one of the Comrades (maybe the players comrade or any other) to have an Order to run in and carry the wounded soldier out of danger while the gunner gives covering fire. (Of course the players could do it themselves but I think this is a rather basic action that the Comrades should be able to do).

I guess that's about it.

In short I think the game should provide basic orders for typical tasks that the Comrades might be involved in and not just tasks that support the players.

If Comrades only have abilities that grant "buffs" the players will treat them as such. While there is nothing wrong with Comrades being frail and easily replaceable (in a mechanics sense) they should be able to act without a player and have basic orders for acting while the players are nearby without the Comrades actively assisting the Player.