There should be a mechanic called 'zeal' works like a reverse humanity… Higher it goes up, lose your human side more. But gain some favor from the Emperor (or just the Warp itself) Space Wolves should have a 'Wulfen' curse and Blood Angels should get 'black rage and red thirst' mechanics

Well i see you didn't get intrigued with my attempts… Then please give me some ideas to deepen character roles, dont like to run games like ''commisars never fear, never retreat, sisters are pious monsters that cleanse entire worlds'' etc. stereotypes… I hate stereotypes and if 40 k have to be ran with stereotypes i think it will lose me :/

Ubernatus said:

In Deathwatch the Black rage and red thrist are there.

Zeal sounds interesting, how would you track it?

Well, I see no need for such a mechanic?

Every player can decide how is character works. Player 1 has a commissar and plays him like Gaunt, Player 2 has a commissar and plays him like Cain, Player 3 has a commissar and plays him completly different.

To "deepen" a Charakter is the Job of the player, not the job of generic rules. They only give you the tools to represent the skills and talents of your character but whether he is deeply religious or some kind questioning the empire only depends on you as a player.

Even fluffwise there is nothing like a Zeal that grants you some benefits in exchange for your service to the emperor. There is only true faith and this mechanic is already realised by the rulebook.

The service to the emperor is your duty, if you fail him you will be executed, if you do your job als you get is the honor to die in his name and worship him as the God he is. A Zealot can have true faith, but true faith does not require you to be a zealot.

And some stereotypes are given fact. A Sororitas that does not believe in the perfection and holy glory of the emperor will be hunt down by her sister without mercy. A commissar that openly shows cowardice will be shot without warning just has he does.

But then, look at the unique Characters of WH40k. Ephrael Stern had choosen to go her own path, she was still a believing Sororitas but her differences made her an enemy of the ecclesiarchy and a saint the same time. Look at Cain, he is a commissar, he is a coward but he has the guts to do what is needed of him when the time has come. Cain does not want to fight, but when he must he will do his job.

Some Institutions force their members to be stereotypes to some degree, we are talking about WH40k, a galaxy in war where you cant trust anyone. But atleast you are working for the inquisition and that gives you the freedom to create unqiue characters that still have to fit in their role, indeed.

FieserMoep said:

Thanks! Exactly my point! Classes should be archetypes (just like in the real world) something like jobs but many people out there portrays 40 k with many stereotypes and this discouraged me for a while…

Angel of Death said:

I thoought that i should track it with 0 to 10 scale. 0 means you are an ateist or almost none religious view and open to chaos corruption. 1-4 is like having faith to shield you but after 5 i wanted the character to start losing his humanity, and become more and more 'a zealous monster' Zeal would protect you from corruption ( to a degree ) as well protect you from fear (to a degree as well), but with the price i stated before. Like in 7 i would give the character 'true faith' and as he reaches 10 it would be a 'Living Saint' and i planned it to work like oWoD humanity.

If you want to track it from 0-10 I would suggest when you gain corruption you get to roll 1D10. If you roll under your zeal you reduce the corruption received by your zeal (so a zeal 8-10 has to have a large gain before the roll won't cancel it). This means that when you reach 10 you are virtually incorruptible.

However when you gain insanity points you roll 1D10. If you roll under your zeal you gain an additional 1D10 insanity. Very zealous characters are more likely to do inhumane things in the name of the Emperor. It should be incredibly hard to get zeal >7 and even impure thoughts should lose you zeal at that stage.

I would in fact be tempted to take a leaf out of L5r honour and have zeal points and ranks. So 10 zeal points = 1 rank. So your actual zeal will be something like "4.3" (4 ranks and 3 points). That way you can gain and lose points within a rank. In L5r 3rd ed. there are a series of things that gain or lose you honour. When you are low it is easy to gain (do something nice/good) when you get higher there are certain things that switch over to causing losses and it is much harder to gain because you have to be perfect.

For example at low zeal obeying a member of the ecclesiarchy despite your own personal misgivings would gain you zeal (you are showing your devotion). At higher levels it would lose you zeal (you did what a man said not what your faith in the emperor was telling you).

You use Zeal to reduce corruption?

Do you remember that a lot of Tzeentch cults are build as Zealots of the Emperor?

Zeal is nothing that protects the soul of an individual, it is faith.

Zeal is often a result of faith but faith is not created by zeal.

Simple Zeal can be misguided and often in fact it is. There a Deamons that are worshiped as saints in the empire, to be a zealos follower of this entity does not save you from corrpution because your faith is not true, even if you dont know that this one is deamon.

Also you can be a zealos killer in the name of the ecclesiarchy but you never find true faith.

We already have willpower as a stat to resist some corruption in combination with some talents. If you are a Zealot and have low willpower, why should this zeal save you? You are a mindless follower but nothing more.

Corruption is feared not without reason. It curses your soul and you cant notice it, corruption is everywhere and only the strong minded who are true in their faith can resist its grip.

But look at Xaphan, he was a cardinal of the ecclesiarchy and where he appeared everyone was a devoted follower of the Emperor. But then Xaphan betrayed his Lord and was corrpupted by chaos but not before he went on Vraks, a powerfull fortress planet. He inspired the soldiers of this world, made them to zealots and then he brought this whole world to rebellion on his own crusade. It required the united forces of the 88th Death Corps Siege Army and Titan forces of the Mechanicus to stop this rebellion that has ben created by zealos "followers" of the emperor.

Zeal is nothing that protects you, zeal turns you into a tool.

BrotherKane said:

Very very nice suggestions thanks Insanity part is really fitting as well

FieserMoep said:

Then it will be the amorality. But think about it… Having too much faith makes you a more zealous person. You don't have to be a Zealot and go berserk. You given many examples yes i you are right but what about Sisters of Battle? Are they the purest of Emperor's warriors or zealous monstrosities? I think they belong to the second part… Yes i know it's 40 k but 40 k is grimdark because of extremities, Not because of the dangers of Chaos nor aliens. So a mechanic to portray it (in my opinion) is neccesary.

Well in my opinion the sororitas are more of pure warrios than zealots.

For example I would say that the red redeptionists are zealos monstrosities though there are some among them who have the true faith.

On the other hand the sororitas as a whole are able to perform acts of faith (In the Tabletop they are the "only" Units able to perfor acts of faith). Fluffweise nobody realy knows what acts of faith realy are. The most ppl. think they are psionic powers granted by the emperor to his most faithfull followers, others say faith is a power of its own. But atleast, to be a saint or to perform acts of faith you must be in favor of the emperor, and this os not achieved throgh pure zeal.

And atleast we already have some talents to protect against corruption and insanity. There is no bether way than those we have because they cover nearly anything. And atleast for any humankind there is no way to be save of not getting corrupted.

Fluffwise the only troops able to resist corruption to a degree are the SoS(Training), SoB(Faith), Inquisition(Willpower) and atleast those who are the first line of defense against the most horrible incarnations of the warp, the GK which have the Training, the Faith, the Willpower and their psionic powers to combine to a real armor against corruption. (Atleast they have special gear to like wards that have been burned beneath their skin into their bones)

In my opinion simple zeal is a motivation but every zealot you can see in WH40k is not protected by his zeal if it comes to corruption, there are always other things that protect other too. And the most zealots are midless followers that can be sacrificed on the altar of battle.

And onther problem I see with this zeal mechanic is game balance. Combat characters are most of the time realy "radical" if it comes to bloodshed. Another mechanic would make it easier for them for they get the zeal mechanic and can dump their willpower stat more. But a social orientaded character would loose its worth with to much zeal so he cant benefit from this mechanic.

So when you save them from corruption, make them vunerable to insanity because zeal is nothing pure beneficial. And dont take such talents like jaded into account. If they are saved more from corruption than any other talent makes possible then their vulnerability to insanity should negate or lower the effect of some insanity protection talents. A Zealous Mind is crazy, nothing to discuss here, and thats the reason why the elite troops of the empire dont build on zeal, only the waste army like frateris militia and so on.

Game mechanics in my opinion is not much of a concern if it does not serve a better storytelling well. And about the zeal thing i guess i couldn't make myself clear. Zeal is the amorality of faith, what happens if you take things too far and many in warhammer 40k does that… And also faith in 40 k is not pure as a normal should be religion. It's words are to hate, purify, cleanse the alien. Don't suffer different opinions. And as the Grey Knights word ''innocence proves nothing'' So tell me if you are a true believer of the Emperor how do you become something else than a ''monster''… Zeal mechanic will cover this… Believing the Emperor is not evil. But cleansing worlds, burning the populace and purging all who are not with you in the name of Him is and that's where Zeal comes in…

I think you misunderstand the faith in 40 k with real world faith (also some have different opinions about it ) and also don't tell me it's necessary thing… That doesn't change anything… If you are burning a planet with its billions cold blooded for some ''greater end'' that does not change anything… You are a monster with good intentions

And about the Sisters of Battle… I don't thing an army who is playing an organ while raining destruction upon the enemy. Putting the heretics on top of their rocket launchers hanging them to their tanks, and while doing that burning the enemy with flamethrowers and meltas are far from good and faithful… They are zealot monsters also with ''good intentions''. And i am asking whose good ? The Imperium? A monolithic structure that nobles are living in rich while the poor are crushing down under the pressure of labour… Really good I better serve the Chaos Gods than to serve Imperium… At least they give me hope

Well, you misunderstood me.

You cant compare WH40k with our current world. When I am talking about pure/true Faith then this is the construct of faith that is builded up in the most WH40k publications. You made the mistake when you compare "pure" with our current religion or how you think it should be. Pure and faith got completly different meanings in WH40k. Pure is the meaning of the imperial creed and though it tells you about hate, hate is something completly normal in WH40k. You use your real life ethics to judge the Empire of Man, that works but not if you try to play in this world where you dont have this view.

Faith does not make you a monster in WH40k, it makes you a human.

And cleansing worlds is not evil, atleast in WH40k

"One cannot consider the fate of a single man, nor ten, nor a hundred, nor a thousand. Billions will live or die by our actions here, and we have not the luxury to count the cost."

- Kryptman

It is just necessary. You cant imagine the ehtics of such an individual wo has to sacrifice whole worlds to save a system of worlds.

From our point of view, the empire is evil but this evil is required for a desprate mankind to survive in a galaxy where mankind is at the brinck of annihilation.

And this term of monster. There is no Monster in WH40k because to be a monster you need someone innocent to call you one. And there is none. WH40k is Grimdark, it was build upon war. And if you want to see some zealots, take some books from the black library.^^

Zeal and Faith cant be compared to our reality. Here the WH40k Faith would be zealous. But in WH40k it is not. Zealots are far more worse that that in WH40k. They cut out their own flesh while they charge unarmed against everything in their way. Their mind is obsessed with the wish to serve the emperor and to die for him just as he has sacrifices himself to save mankind. But the Sororitas are a cold blooded, organized force of distruction. Their Faith is ther armor as their holy trinity is their weapon. If you want call someone innocent in the terms of WH40k, then thats the sororitas. But they are not innocent for killing the heretics which is by all means the duty of every citizen, they are innocent for their pure faith in the emperor. Yes a faith that proclaims murder, but atleast a faith in a real demi-god who is the only chance of survival.

In Wh40k you cant judge faith for its lack of mercy and forgivnes because nobody can miss them because they never existed. (Atleast afther 10.000 Years nobody can remember). Faith is nothing amoral, its the only moral and therefore it is pure. Not from our point of view but from theirs.

And even Zeal in WH40k Fluff cant protect you from any corruption. Zeal is a personal motivation but faith, if its strong enough, is a proven link to the power of the emperor himself. There were billions of zealots, and more of them have fallen to chaos. Indeed, if a world fell to chaos it had mostly any kind of zeal before.

As according to the fluff it evolved from real world history as the Emperor being the center of all the religion, so basically i can judge them in my own terms… Calling them pure and necessary is the same thing as you talk about the dark ages that christians burning populace because they are ''heretics'' Also 40 k has the calling ''truth is subjective''. You can't judge what is right or wrong. And this faith alone filled with hatred against the ''alien'' are the fuel of chaos gods (khorne must be very happy, not quite pure if you see Chaos as evil). And also that faith itself is the thing that makes you blind to what might save you in such a universe… So Chaos is the thing that is the enemy of Men? As the Chaos itself is the reflection of humanity according to fluff again… Daemons, Chaos Gods thats what you are! And think about the Emperor's plan to destroy the religions… As he is the one to know that Warp and Chaos exists, what was he trying to do? Because what's happening right now is not quite help to save Humanity… And about the Sororitas according to what i say they serve Chaos just as another Cultist… Maybe i should change some things about what i call the Zeal… Maybe it should be the degree that how far you have gone from the Emperor's Word (meaning the Imperial Truth)

You are right about some things… First zeal is not the one that protects you from corruption. Perhaps Faith should be inducted so that it will be much more interesting than a right or wrong axis of Zeal ( or Humanity ) what do you think? Faith and the Imperial Creed is adoring violence very much as we speak of it… Maybe there can be conflicts with your faith to the Emperor and your ''love'' ? As a Sororita maybe? Don't want to think the 40 k as stereotypes but can think of it as archetypes… Doesn't matter if you are Sororita or a Commisar, you are a human and you have need to love.. I know it may sound a bit classic but it perfectly fits to the setting