Picked up the game a couple months ago but never got around to actually playing. However Now my group wants to start making characters.. YAY! Anyway this is a very newbish question regarding starting skills.

Space Marines already start with several Skills. Lets use Awareness as an example. On the character sheets Awareness is already marked with both Basic (meaning you get to roll at your appropriate Attribute percentage) and trained (which doesnt show any bonuses??? Shouldnt this add a +10?)

At Rank one though it lists Awareness for a general advance not a +10 advance. Yet the character already has the basic.. Does this mean the player has to still Purchase the Rank 1 advance for 200 points before he can get the rank 2 with the +10 for 300 points?

Sorry for the confusion but I dont see any rules governing this and the skill section of the book is poorly organized.

Thanks for any help will check back later tonight hopefully with some clarification. Back to work I go.

Ok, this is a common misconception.

There are two types of skills, basic and advanced.

-Basic: Can make the skill test even if untrained, at half their attribute value (test on 1/2 Stat +/- bonuses, capped at 60, if I recall, positive bonuses are also halved with this. Short answer is, don't bother with difficult untrained basic skill tests, but you can physically do them)

-Advanced: Cannot make the skill test untrained.

Then there are two ways to have a skill (well, really 3)

-Untrained: See above for how the skill is used

-Trained: Can make tests on that skill at no penalty (test on stat +/- bonuses, capped at 60)

-Trained with bonus: Same as above, plus whatever modifier from the skill.

Simply put, once you're trained in a skill, whether or not it is basic or advanced is meaningless.

To answer your question on the advancement tables, it is worth noting is that the way the book is written, a character will have on their advancement table skills they may already posses. There is no benefit to buying these skills (e.g. Perception is listed on the advancement chart. Standard marines are already trained in Perception). This is done to "future-proof" the books, so that a potential alternate marine option could remove certain skills as trained skills, and not destroy the characters long term ability. If you want to see why, there actually should be a small blurb at the start of the advancement table chapter explaining just this.

Also, one more thing, don't go by the character sheet. Double check the skills a starting marine is trained in first. The character sheet is missing one or two things.

Very few things will make a skill switch from basic to advanced BTW, so don't worry about that box. It should be filled in by default on the character sheet according to the type of skill. Bother first with the "Trained" box.

What you need to find (and the page number eludes me at the moment (p. 37 I think), is the section of the book that details the starting skills, talents, traits, and gear of a rank 1 space marine . This will be your end all answer to what you have at start of play.

Thanks for the response. So pretty much my starting marines could ignore that rank 1advance for awareness and when they hit rank 2 they would just purchase that advance for the +10.

Thanks again.

Yep, those entries are only in there for the sake of completeness; you don't have to worry about training skills/talents you already have.

Just want to add a couple things. When you buy a "skill +10" advance it essentially adds the +10 to the characteristic the skill uses when making that type of test.

I.E. A character with perception 42 and the "Awareness +10" skill will need to roll under 53 (instead of 43) when making Awareness tests (but not other perception based tests). These do not apply to the difficulty modifiers (the +/-60 modifier cap).

The Talented skill upgrade adds a +10 to the difficulty modifers (the +/-60 modifier cap) but does not change the characteristic used for the test.

This could come into play if an effect states a character must make a certain test with no modifiers. If he had perception 42 and Awareness with only "Talented - Awareness" he would not gain the +10, needing to roll under 43, but if he had "Awareness +10" the characteristic would still be increased and he would need to roll under 53.

These effects do stack.

Also, when making basic tests the difficulty modifiers (+/-60 cap) are not halved. Only the characteristic score is halved. A Routine (+10) test made with a basic skill associated with a characteristic of 40 would test on a 20 but still get the full +10 modifier. Something isn't half as easy or half as hard simply because you aren't fully trained to do it.

Where did the 'skill training does not count to +/-60 cap' thing come from?

Pretty sure its an aspect that you just plain test that skill at a higher value, whereas the +/- 60 is for conditional modifiers. Its similar as to how test difficulty and modifiers stack (e.g. a hellish(-60) test can also suffer from -60 conditional modifiers, for a total of -120 to a test).

No, you can never go over a +/-60 modifier for any test. If you are performing a Hellish (-60) test the difficulty modifier is -60. Any more negative modifiers beyond -60 are ignored UNLESS you also have positive modifiers. The best way to deal with modifiers is to add them all up at once and drop any excess after you hit the +/-60.

Example: A WS test - Some psychic power makes it a Hellish test (-60), and you're fighting in mud (-10) and smoke (-10), but you have hatred (+10) against your target. So you add all the modifiers -60 + -10 + -10 + 10 = -70, but -70 is more than -60 so it is lowered to -60.

When you buy a Skill +10 advance you are increasing your characters ability with that skill. You are not buying him a difficulty modifier but rather increasing the value of the characteristic the character tests on. A character with agility of 40 and Dodge +10 tests to dodge on 50 (not 40), if he had dodge +20 he would test on a 60 (not 40).

But these do not affect difficulty modifiers. If the character gets a +40 modifier to dodge something his test would be:
40 +40 if he only has dodge
50 +40 if he has dodge +10
60 +40 if he has dodge +20

The Talented skill advance gives a +10 difficulty modifier though. The same character with Talented (dodge) would make the +40 test as follows:
40 +50 (+40, +10 for talented) if he only has dodge
50 +50 if he has dodge +10
60 +50 if he has dodge +20

I was wondering if that was in print anywhere. I don't think that is the case. I am pretty sure that it is base characteristic +/-60 and anything that modifies this is capped including skills, otherwise there would need to be a whole list of what is capped and what is not.

I always felt that test difficulty was a completely separate aspect from a bonus to the test, and was its own static thing applied after the fact to the roll. Where exactly in the book does it state that difficulty and bonuses stack to the +/- 60 cap?

I'm just not sure I'm comfortable with a hellish test becoming a +60 test under absolutely perfect circumstances. Or a trivially easy task becoming impossible just because everything is going wrong.

It states on page 244 in the combat section, "The maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is -60."

I know many of you are tempted to cry afoul since, "that quote is in the combat section." It is about, and states, "test" not "ballistic skill test", and the ruling it applies to all tests is generally accepted. If you don't want to play with it, fine, house rule away all you want. If you don't think its right, send a question to the rules persons.

Concerning Skill Mastery:
Table 7-1 on page 203 indicates tests taken with a mastered skill is taken at "full characteristic +10 or +20". Meaning the characteristic is increased by the level of skill mastery in that skill.

----- I'm just not sure I'm comfortable with a hellish test becoming a +60 test under absolutely perfect circumstances. Or a trivially easy task becoming impossible just because everything is going wrong. -----

Remember that for the hellish task to get to +60 you would have to have enough in your favor to get +120 in bonuses. If you have that much in your favor then have at it! And the same for the trivial task. Heck, if there is enough against you then even the most trivial task becomes impossible. Putting your shoes on isn't hard at all. Try doing it one handed in a hurricane!

Looking through my books I think I've found something.

P. 202 - Skill Tests:

"To make a Skill Test, add any relevant modifiers to the Skill's governing Characteristic, then make a percentile roll. If the result is equal to or less than the modified Characteristic, the test succeeds."

This is different in Black Crusade.:

"• Determine the Skill or Characteristic being tested. Each
Test identifies one Characteristic or a Skill (which is a
Characteristic modified by circumstances) to be Tested.
• Once the Skill or Characteristic is identified, take the
value of the Skill or Characteristic."… "Once you have that number, identify
any modifiers that may affect the Test, either positive or
negative."

"• If the result of the percentile roll is less than or equal to
the Skill or Characteristic being tested, after all modifiers
are applied, then the test succeeds."

I think in DW it is all base Characteristic +/-60.

A case could be made for those of us using BC rules that skill training is the base.

Table 7-1 on page 203 of the Deathwatch rulebook indicates tests taken with a mastered skill is taken at "full characteristic +10 or +20". Meaning the characteristic is increased by the level of skill mastery in that skill

herichimo said:

But where exactly is it stated that the test difficulty is a "bonus," and not a hard modifier applied after everything else?

Yes, I am just nit-picking at this point. Once again, my issue is encouraging players to try to game the rules to find more than +60 bonus modifiers to a test in order to solve a "difficult" problem. I'm fine when its just trying to counter-balance negative bonus modifiers, but once its both that, trying to get a +60 bonus, and trying to negate the test difficulty, that just seems a bit much to me. Once again, nit-picking.

I can say this is something that rarely ever actually comes up at the table.