I just thought that the avarage PC party 0f 4-6 is the perfect size for a tank crew which allows for lots of fun considering most crews in books are runnning around in penny packets so being atached to a guard regit is possiabel

1. Commander
2. Gunner
3. Loader
4. Driver

This is a modern western tank crew additon of a radio operator give you a ww2 crew I can see extra gunners and Mech as well in a large 40k tank?
what do people thing allows for all sorts of ideas and keeps the size small and focused One probleam is of course TPK is a much easier propositon.

For a Lemun Russ or similar class tank... remembering what I read in Gunheads this sounds about right. Though a Cadian story in the Guard Omnibus describes the inside of at least one Baneblade class (a Stormblade if I remember correctly) tank during the recovery of the Fortress of Arrogance... remember it sounded like there was nearly eight seperate positions on it and most of them pulled double duty as gunners.

For a Leman Russ the crew is:
Commander, Gunner, Driver, Loader, 2 Sponson Gunners


For a Bane Blade the crew is:
Commander, Driver, 3 Gunners, 3 Loaders, Comms-Operator, Engineer

Santiago said:

For the Leman Russ I would have thought there would be a hull gunner (who is also pressumbly navigator or comms opperator) which is not optional like the sponsons.

For the Baneblade I count 5 gunners at least (I think I remember the sponsons opperate both the H bolters and the Las-cannons), driver, comander and maybe 2 loaders for the BC and Demolisher cannon.

The problem I see with this is that playing a loader may be one of the most boring combat PC's possible, same with commander really, as they won't have much to do.

Driver and gunner could work, but it seems easier to have some tankers along with supporting infantry.

The Commander can open up the top for when he wants to open fire with the pintle mounted weapon.

Or hit someone with his sword.

SomVone said:

I mentioned this in another thread but it is appropriate here:

Crewing an Armored vehicle is much like crewing a naval vessel in many respects. Each crew member has a dedicated role in combat and none are irrelevant or unimportant. To use the Leman Russ as an example:

4 crew (Per IG Codex) Tank commander, Gunner, Driver, and loader (As earlier suggested).

The Tank Commander directs the rest of the crew and is responsible Identifying and prioritizing targets in combat " Driver halt! Target Tank; Eldar wave serpent, 035, range 400!"

The Gunner is responsible for positioning and firing the main weapon. "Target Aquired:Tank 400"

The Driver controls the movement of the tank and controls the forward hull mounted weapons. " All stop! Lascannon hot! Engaging target!"

The Loader also serves as the Radioman and controls any Sponson servitors " Round up! Boss; Command says there's infantry prowling about! Uncaging sponsons!

Doesn't sound boring to me!

I would just relegate the loader to being an NPC.

Like I say, I'm a lot happier with the 'everyone is a captain' model from Star Trek online, with all the players controlling a tank commander.

'The Party' then forms a tank troop of 3-5 tanks, which is a nice independent tactical unit.

AluminiumWolf said:

Like we debated in the other thread: Your method is valid but I think it would only work w/ higher lvl characters. For lower lvl PC's I would stick w/ the single tank crew model.

Personally, I think I'd rather the abstract tank crew. Numerous characters aren't going to have anything to do with a tank, and might only be near one that was a Chimera they rode in. Having a character with the Drive skill, to do so, would be nice, and if you need to operate the lasgun-mounts, or such, okay, but if your character will be a tank, such as a Leman Russ, then I think I'd rather that each was a tank, and you just run it, and the NPCs, like a one-man crew tank. Then, your characters who aren't tanky, say your stealth-based sniper team, or your Ogryn Assault Squad, can still do their thing, while you bring down the sky with a Leman Russ's battle cannon. Having all your party in a tank, with one doing the occasional Drive test, two shooting guns, and one barking orders at them just isn't as fun to me, when your party could be more efficient spreading out, each doing their specialty, and feeling more like they are the victorious army, rather than one tank in it, that happened to blow a tread. Also, if my first wish is granted, and they balance out weapons, so that they can ding/boom vehicles, without killing infantry just for watching you reload, some tanks might not be the best place to stow the whole party. A melta-bomb that works on the side of your Hellhound might spell doom for you all, as the blast fills the tank with death, and the survivors, if any, then watch as the promethium stores detonate, sending you physically rocketing to the Emperor's bossum.

Anyway, that's my two bits; make one character a "tank operator", who pilots, barks, and shoots, and leave the rest to slog it on foot, where their specialties can still apply. Otherwise it's kind of like Star Wars RPG, to me. In that, I will either build an Ace Pilot, and strike fear in the Imperial Navy with my invincible starfighter, OR I build a powerful Jedi, and strike fear into the Imperial ground troops with my bringing justice back to the Republic. The two don't particularly mix well, and characters who aren't dedicated pilots, called upon to act like they are, often fail, while fighter aces on foot suck. It's good to know which style you will be in, first, and build accordingly. Hopefully, this game will understand that, and allow a character to operate a tank, more or less as an extension of themselves, sort of how a Dreadnought works (yes, I am well aware that a great deal more goes into making a Dreadnought work, but it's the principle of the thing), and let the other players do their thing, whether that's drive their own tanks, scout ahead and paint strike spots for distant Basilisks, or shore up behind a wall, and pour heavy fire into enemy infantry, while someone is coordinating all of this with a beautiful string of orders that show why the Guard has been enough, over the millennia, to hold onto the Imperium, even when the Space Marines are too busy fighting the handful of epic fights that the Guard couldn't handle.

Radwraith said:

You could start off being a really bad tank commander with a really little tank...

)

AluminiumWolf said:

Ok! You got me there!

Honestly though: The other problem I have with a one man tank is that turns a single character into something FAR MORE powerful than an Astartes! If I'm going to run that kind of game than the players might as well play SM's! (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing! ) As I said though; The single man tank model is as valid as my tank crew method. It's just a question of the style of game you wish to run.

Dude. It is just a tank! They made something like 300,000 of them in the Second World War. The Imperium is going to be swimming in tanks. And anti-tank weapons.

AluminiumWolf said:

Dude! I get it: Top speed 29 - 70 kph Armor such that most weapons carried by most creatures in the Galaxy will not touch it! Enough firepower to to Destroy enemy armor, Level structures and annihilate hordes of infantry in a single round! It's a Tank! It is not a medieval Knight's Warhorse (Although it actually fills the same roll on the battlefield.)! I am not saying that there are not plenty of them to go around. Fluff sources put their numbers in the millions! That means that there are many more of event the Leman russ tank in service than there are SM's total! While you may wish your group to be the commanders of a platoon of these beasts I would rather they didn't each have there own destructo engine! (Especially at lower lvls!) Either way is good but that's my opinion.

Peace

Radwraith said:

Radwraith said:

Don't think you're giving the xenos and renegades enough credit to roll up somewhere or prepare for engaging the Imperial Guard as they've had 10,000 years of practice and experience to figure out, meeting the Imperial Guard means you're going to have tonnes of artillery landing all over you. Then they're going to roll tanks and squishy dudes in flack with flashlights all over what the artillery didn't blow to ****.

However, the enemy also has communications, their own tanks, artillery and anti-armour units so you probably wont have a turkey shoot of pew-pew infantry for too long before something just as big, scary and shooty turns up and returns the favour. Course the downside of being in a tank isn't as survivable as it would seem when a full theatre lights up, because it just means you're afforded more ordinance somewhere in your direction.

Radwraith said:

While I do see where you are coming from, the system has a few examples of this premise, already. In RT, if you are a lucky SOB, and your ship has fighter/bomber bays, you might get to be a Void master ace pilot. Now, in conventional space combat, this isn't good for you, as they take all of the mechanics out of the fighters, and abstract their use, and you'll probably ALWAYS lose several to enemy fighters and turrets, but, if you are ever so lucky, you might get to use them in atmosphere. Your party goes down to a planet, and you get to fly down, zipping through the atmosphere in any of a number of fighter craft, and let loose the power of space guns on ground people. It makes you significantly more BA than the rest of your party, and nothing less than AA gun turrets, or a guy carrying a rocket launcher, is likely to be a risk to you, until you have to land, and join your buddies, to go inside. Deathwatch does the same, if your character can happen to become a Dreadnought. They are considerably more powerful than a "regular" Marine. basically a high-armored tank in their own right. On this thought, a one-man tank crew COULD work.

The big problem I am having is a lack of info, on exactly how the tram mechanic will work. The IG is usually a massive force of hundreds, every person a faceless meatbag about to be ground into pulp for the better of the Imperium. Most of their units are large assortments of similar people. If you have 4-6 characters, how will they work compared to the rest of the nameless drones? Are we expecting that the players are all in a single platoon/unit, so their character choices should work into that, or might they be spaced out, across the army, so that they have more freedom to play what they want, and the whole army feels more relevant, but will interact personally less, and not depend on each other as a team, as much? Not every character will necessarily be a leader, but then they are just a guy, being bossed around by NPC Officers, with little choice of what they'll be doing. If they make it so that you are a one-man tank-crew, or a soldier in a horde, that could work, and also maybe balance out the two ideas a smidge. If everyone is in one Leman Russ, that could work to, assuming everyone has something to be doing, and everyone has some skill at what they should be doing; a LRBT is not meant to transport troops, so they all need to contribute. Once I get a better idea of how the team dynamic will work, I will be better able to formulate how hope this thought turns out.

Radwraith said:

It isn't like you would be turning up with five tanks to investigate rumours of cult activity at the noodle bar on hab level 17b. As the mailed fist of the Imperial Guard, you will be well, re-enacting Cambrai, attacking infantry held trenches, or the invasion of France in 1940, launching a blitzkrieg against unprepared opponents, or Kursk, attacking massive defence in depth with 70 dug in lascannons per kilometer of front, or the much anticipated World War Three/Team Yankee, with the thin grey line of Imperial Tanks defending against an unending horde of Ork armour.

You may have a tank, but since you are in the army now the enemy rolls just as heavy. They get tankbusting aircraft, anti-tank missiles, poison gas, massed batteries of MLRS launchers and Titans.

Great, I've already started mapping out how to requisition tanks and stuff for a Tank based Imperial Guard Campaign.

Basically, they'll all be part of the crew.... a Driver, a Gunner, the Commander, the loader can be an NPC, and if we have Sponson gunners, we'll have room for two more people... Eventually, the Commander and his crew will either accrue enough points to move up into a new vehicle, or be promoted higher.

Simply: Tank Classes

Main Battle Tank: (Leman Russ, Leman Russ Conqueror)

Infantry Support Tank: (Leman Russ Exterminator, Hellhound)

Tank Hunter/Destroyer: (Leman Russ Vanquisher, Leman Russ Executioner, Leman Russ Annhilator, Destroyer Tank Hunter)

Siege Tank (Leeman Russ Demolisher, Thunderer)

Super Heavy Class 1: (Malcador and Macharius hulls, etc.)

Super Heavy Class 2: (Baneblade, Storm Hammer, Stormsword, Stormlord, etc.)

Super Heavy Class 3: (Titan Killers, Shadowsword, Stormblade, etc.)

Lionus said:

Thanks for the compliment! I actually worked in CIC on an naval warship in my youth. I had a some of buddies who were Marine corp tankers back then and that was where I learned how similar their methods were to to what we did in CIC!

To those advocating the single tank model: I am not saying that this method cannot work. As Venkelos pointed out; It's very similar to playing a fighter pilot. I simply stated that the Tank crew model would be MY preference. Nor does being in a Tank make you truly Invincible in a Battlefield scenario. The Problem is that the AVERAGE NPC of Chaos, Eldar or whatever does not carry any weapon that could touch a Tank of any variety! That's as it should be! whats the point of having armor if your base model rifleman can smoke you! This is really the difference between a Air war or Star fighter type game vs. the focus of OW: In the Air war scenario your primary opponents will be other Fighters, Voidships and AA batteries. Most Pilots will never even see what's going on with the people on the ground! In the Ground war scenario the Infantry (and possibly civvies) are right next to you being ground into your treads! The Overwhelming killing power of a Tank on the battlefield cannot be overstated! Sure, There are Anti'tank weapons, Other Tanks and even threats from the air but you are still fighting amongst the common soldiers. You are a rolling engine of devastation among amongst a (largely) helpless throng of flesh! This is why I am reticent to make each player their own war engine.

It's not that hard to have a single tank game. I mean, look at the Israeli movie Lebanon (2009), a movie practically filmed entirely from the perspective of a tank crew:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1483831/

So, the commander will be given an order from either the squadron leader or from his commanding officer, like, take that hill or move in support of 'x' platoon of infantry. You then play to that. Urban combat will be hellish for those in the tank, as visibility is limited and you're going to have alot of ghost returns on the Auspex... The driver will have access to the hull mounted gun and have to make steering tests...you have the gunner making tech use tests and then what ever the big guns count as... and so on

My question is: how do you keep a tank-centered campaign from becoming just an endless series of "drive" and "fire" rolls?

Let's see, you can have the tank knocked out, or a sneak attack on the depot where the crew is in for either refuel and reload....

Tank breaks down, the crew is stranded in an area where the locals are quiet happy with murdering them for whom they are...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(1988_film )

Spaulding his one of the crew members requireing first aid, etc. Think of all the little issues tank crews have to deal with, from fire to chemical attacks...

Another tank movie: Sahara (1943) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036323/

Heck, there's a new horror movie coming out involving a German tank crew fighting some daemon... if that doesn't inspire you...