I have a question regarding the Lazax mech units but don't have my rulebook on me at the moment so I'll try to get it right. These mech counters are Strength 2 but each counter is only a single unit (like the normal soldier counters). Now, when a player is choosing how many units/strength to commit while setting up his battle dial, and he is the Lazax player and commits mech units, does he turn the dial to the number of units he's committing, or the total strength of the units he's committing?

So for example the Lazax player is committing 4 mech units, nothing else. Does he turn the dial to 4, or to 8?

Then lets say in another scenario the Lazax player has 2 soldiers and 2 mechs in the location where he is resolving a battle. if he only commits say 1 soldier and 1 mech, and loses the battle, could he choose to take 3 soldiers as casualties instead of the 1 mech and 1 soldier actually committed? Reason being, both options add up to a total strength of 3. The rulebook does not seem to be clear as to whether the player must remove the exact units he committed, or whether he can choose any from the 'pool' in the battle location.

Thanks!

You dial the number equal to your strength, not to the number of tokens. You would dial 8 for four mechs. Also note that you cannot dial above 20, so if you have all tokens in one territory, you cannot commit all your troops.

Adam said:

Incorrect.

Page 22 of the rulebook gives an example of this. It states, "The Lazax player has three units in a battle, all of which are Mechanized units (total strength of six). He sets his dial to three during battle..."

In this example, ONLY TWO of the three units are required to be destroyed if the Lazax player were to win the battle. If the Lazax player had set the dial to 6, then ALL THREE of the units would be need to be destroyed, not just two of them.

When I re-read this, I thought that perhaps the Lazax player was simply CHOOSING three strength out of the available six, but that doesn't make sense, because why would the Lazax player not have chosen FOUR strength to help ensure his victory? The example seems to imply that the total strength of six from all three units is being calculated here when compared to the enemy.

So, you would double the amount for each mech unit when calculating strength and comparing to your enemy's strength, but you do not double the amount when selecting a number on your battle dial.

A better question would be this:

This same page states, "When taking casualties, the Lazax player chooses which of his units are destroyed, with each Mechanized unit destroyed counting as two units."

Does this mean that, if you have a mech unit and a regular unit in the space where the battle is occurring, could you select 1 on your dial, have two strength from your mech unit in the battle, and then choose to destroy the 1 regular unit instead of the mech unit?

I believe the example actually supports Adam's case. The only reason to think otherwise is, as you say, that it would normally be a poor decision on the player's part to dial three when he could have dialed four, but this is an awful lot to read into an example that is primarily about rounding up partial losses (especially since the phenomenon only ever occurs when player has made a poor decision, by its very nature).

Importantly, if you were supposed to dial the number of units rather than the strength, then there would be no reason for the rulebook to emphasize that the Lazax can't dial higher than 20.

Uh, no, I'm correct, and your example proves it. Read the whole example and it says that he must kill enough tokens to satisfy the strength dialed. He dialed three strength, so he has to destroy at least three strength worth of units. In this case, the only way to do that is to destroy two mechs. If you destroyed the number of tokens dialed, you would have to destroy all three since he dialed three. The only two options are that you dial your strength or you dial your tokens, and he obviously did not dial his tokens since he dialed three and destroys only two, and the example clearly states that he is destroying tokens by the strength dialed.

You MAY be right, but at this point, the interpretation could probably go either way. For now, I leave it to each of you to determine the answer for yourselves as a "house rule".

I think that the example on Page 22 is missing some critical information that would allow us to fully resolve this question (i.e., is the Lazax player committing the full strength of 6 from all three of his mech units to the battle by selecting 3 on his dial?).

I have requested an answer from FFG, and I am waiting to hear back from them. I will keep you apprised.

Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

The reason that the Lazax player chose to dial 3 instead of 4 in this example is because this example is proving a point about how the mechanized units take damage. Namely, that a "half damaged" unit is still destroyed. This is not an example of the best way to conduct combat, this is an example of how to assign your casualties as Lazax.

The number you dial is, in fact, the strength you are comitting to battle, not the number of units. If you want further evidence of this, I refer you to page 22, discussing special considerations for various races:

"The Lazax cannot select a number higher than 20 on the battle dial (even if they have more strength worth of units) ."

Think about that for a second. If the number being dialed is the number of tokens, why would that sentence need to exist? Lazax has 15 regular tokens and 5 mechs, everybody else has 20 regular tokens. The only way that sentence makes sense is if the number dialed is strength , for which the Lazax could, in theory, have up to 25 in a single space if he committed all his units.

Unless if it's a clarification on exactly WHY the Lazak player cannot select a number higher than 20, rather than just stating that it is not allowed. Unfortunately, there's still room for both interpretations.

(However, I do admit that your argument is rather compelling.)

I don't see what there is to interpret. The example clearly states that he dials three and has to kill only two of the mechs, not all three. If you were dialing token numbers rather than strength, the example would show all three units destroyed. This is also how it worked in Dune, for what it's worth.

If you simply dialed the number of tokens used, you would immediately have problems. Normally, you reveal your battle dials simultaneously and figure out the total just from looking at the dial. If you just dial tokens used and have a five mechs and five normal units in battle then dial five, you actually have no clue what your total is when you reveal it because you still have to state which tokens are being used. This allows you to look at your opponent's revealed plan and then make decisions, something that is absolutely contrary to how Rex's battles work. The rules do not list a step for the Lazax to make this decision in battle. Only treachery is a decision slotted for after the dial reveal.

As for why they gave an example where someone foolishly dialed half a mech, well, they had to explain that somewhere. Otherwise, what would happen if someone accidentally dialed 3 in such a case during a real game? Would the battle be null? There would be no rule to cover it because he obviously has enough strength to dial 3 and so it is a legitimate option, so you look at the example and see "oh, you just have to destroy two mechs and eat the loss," so to speak.

You're beating a dead horse, here.

I have already stated that the alternate viewpoint MAY, indeed, be correct. However, I am still waiting for an OFFICIAL response, not just another player's interpretation. That's the problem with interpretations: no one is right or wrong until such time as an authority makes the official ruling. When that happens, believe me, you all will be the first to know, because other players need to know as well. I am not above admitting if and when I am wrong, but I will not do so until I receive a response from FFG.

End of discussion.

Are you a moderator in disguise that you can say when discussion is over? I was just curious what you found vague about what I see as not an interpretation but plain enough English, not trying to irritate you or beat up your recently deceased horse (I'm sorry for your loss, by the way).

You know, the more I see from this Doctor guy, the more I'm convinced he's just a troll who intentionally misinterprets rules to start these sorts of arguments with people. Either that or he's just an incredibly stubborn twelve year old who won't listen to anything other than official FFG statements.

Either way, I do agree with him on one thing: this is the end of the discussion. If he's not convinced by the evidence that's been placed before him, he can continue this debate with FFG's rules staff. At least they're getting paid for this sort of thing. =P

Wrong on both counts, Steve-O. Be careful of your accusations. I'm just another avid gamer who sees things a little differently than everyone else, apparently. (The world needs people who can see things from different perspectives.) Big fan of FFG titles. I just don't like ambiguity.

As far as needing official clarification, I have found out the hard way in the past that no matter how strong an argument might be, one might still be surprised when he finds out who is right. Each of us is a human being who makes mistakes, even the FFG staff. Stay tuned...

(Oh, and thanks for the condolences, Adam. The horse was, indeed, a mighty fine animal when it was in its prime.)

One more question: the Lazax units count as 2 strength per token but during the battle phase it is not too powerful? And their are two kinds of tokens, small and big ones. What are the differences? I do not have the rulebook at hand so I have to ask you guys.

With best regards.

Only the big tokens count as two strength, the rest are normal (the other difference is that you can only recruit one big unit per round). So yes, while it gives the Lazax a bit of an edge, it definitely isn't too powerful.

The argument doesn't mean anything. The rules clearly states that mech units count as 2 strength for both combat and losses. So why bother dialing a 3 and then translate it to 6 for both combat & losses. Just dial 6 and be done with it. Since you have to reveal your committed strength honestly before using strategy cards why bother to dial 3 when you have to tell the opponent how much strength you are committing anyway.

The argument doesn't mean anything. The rules clearly states that mech units count as 2 strength for both combat and losses. So why bother dialing a 3 and then translate it to 6 for both combat & losses. Just dial 6 and be done with it. Since you have to reveal your committed strength honestly before using strategy cards why bother to dial 3 when you have to tell the opponent how much strength you are committing anyway.

The winner takes casualties equal to the number he dials, the loser loses everything. It's a push your luck mechanic, rather than the random die rolls that so many other games rely on for combat. So, always dialing the maximum strength you have available means you won't have any units left over to control the territory when the battle is done. Good job on winning, though.

The units are worth 2 normal units.

The rules come from the original rule designs.

In Dune "Elite" soldier units were worth two "normal" soldiers in combat, for all other rules they were treated as a "normal" solider.

The Lazax Mech's are Elite units, so they are in combat worth two normal units.

As for the limit of 20, it's just the limit of the combat wheel, not how many you can put into combat. But who would be able to put more than 20 normal units into combat, or be welling to do so with the risk of loosing the lot it the hero/leader is killed?