I recently started a campaign and have a Space Wolf Tactical Marine who would like to get a bit closer to the fluff. He wants to be able to get stuck in with bolt pistol and close combat weapon when the melee closes with him. He doesn't wish to do the Assault Marine's job so much as be a propert Grey Hunter. although he has the Two Weapon Talents available, they're at Rank and 7. He wants to be able to be better at close combat soonish.

Now my understanding is that if he attempts to dual wield a pistol and a close combat weapon, he will be at a -10 for both due to not having the two talents. Are there alternatives that he can take at Rank 4 or sooner?

Lack of a decently ranged weapon combined with lack of jump pack to close range quickly is going to really screw you.

He does have his Bolter and happily uses it. He just wants to be able to perform in melee much like a Grey Hunter would on the tabletop. I'm just trying to figure out if there are any melee talents he can take to reflect this earlier than Rank 5.

Look at the Deathwatch Champion advanced specialty.

And you can always requisition a jump pack.

Or see if your GM will let you Elite Advance those two-weapon Talents earlier for more XP.

I had a player wanting to put together a Grey Hunter. The best solution we found wat to use the Tyrranic War Veteran Advanced Specialty from First Founding. Especially good for him as he wanted to play a member of Krakendooms great company. Not only do you get a number of combat skills, you get a chainsword as standard issue (and hellfire rounds, but that's just gravy really)

Another option, although one with a cost, is to take the Wolf Scout speciality, you loose the tac marines special ability, and fellowship advances become expensive so you might not like it straght off the bat. But you do get all the melee skills you could want.

All in all I kind of wish they had gone for TWW as a SW advance rather than counter attack. I much preffer space wolves to be improved melee options for a tac than trying to to make uber assault marines.

Though taking Wolf Scout makes you a...Wolf Scout. Not a Grey Hunter.

You could go Assault Marine and not take a jump pack.

Changing his specialty is not an option at this point as the campaign (I am the GM) has started and he likes the character overall. Although, two weapon fighting is one way to do it, I've been wanting to look at other melee talents.

I also need some clarification on what kind of penalty he will be going against. If he uses two melee or two ranged weapons without TWW, the penalty for both will be -10, and he will be making both attacks at -10. It will also be the same if he attempts to have one ranged and one melee weapon without both TWW talents and will be going at a -10 on both. Is this right? I've read both the Rulebook and the FAQ as well as searched the boards and can't find a definitive answer.

Two Weapon Fighting P. 246

With Ambidextrous (wich all marines have) and TWW you have a -10 to both hands.

There is no mention of using two weapons simultaneously without the talents in the DW main book. There is precedent for it in Dark Heresy, specificaly in the Errata you can download on the support page for DH on these forums though they seem somewhat counter intuitive as to the penalties for having only Ambidextrous versus only TWW.

From DH Errata:

no talents: -20 Main hand -40 Off Hand

With Ambidextrous only: -10 MH -30 OH

With TWW only: -20 MH -20 OH

With Both: -10 MH -10 OH

(If you are using ranged and melee but don't have both talents you count as having neither.)

I think the ones in the middle should be switched, but that's how it's written.

bogi_khaosa said:

This is basically what I've done, just switched the JP for 15 req worth of other useful stuff. I would still take a Tac Marine special ability. Other than that, or taking a lot of elite advances, there isn't a lot you can do. A Grey Hunter is basically just a tac marine anyway.

Ladz,
Vulkan is my GM and I am his "Problem child" when it comes to all of this.

I am a Space Wolf player on the tabletop and have been since early 4th Edition 40K. I want to make my character reflect the fluff that is the Space wolves.

Thing about space wolves is that they do sort of a reverse order of advancement compared to regular marines. Their Neophytes, known as "Blood Claws" are their assault troops. Basically the newbies get clad in power armor from day one after surviving induction and are given a bolt pistol/CCW. Once they survive long enough to not be a bunch of hot headed youths, they are inducted into the "Grey Hunters" with the rest of their pack. They are trained how to use both a Bolter an Close combat weapon in tandem, as opposed to Codex following chapters. This trait used to be referred to as "True Grit," which is not the same as the True Grit in the Fantasy Flight games.

I want to have some way of showing this training, and believe that my Grey Hunter is old enough to no longer have any penalties in using his wargear this way. As from what I understand, the base penalty for a marine doing this without these traits is -10/-10?

The problem is that the Tactical Marine gets the Two Weapon Wielding (Ballistic) trait significantly late in the rank ladder, and cannot get Two Weapon Wielding (Melee) at all as far as I have seen. I DO NOT wish to replace the Assault Marine’s role in combat, but still wish to reflect the mid-ranged nature, yet close combat prowess, of the Grey Hunter.

My only suggestion is to lose my knowledge of Codex Astartes, as Space wolves are not trained in this way and either:

-be given the ability to buy both as elite advances at Rank 1 or as a Space Wolf

-Have a “house trait” made where I can buy a custom trait that reflects the knowledge of using both a Basic raged weapon/ pistol and Close Combat weapon, but does not allow me the benefits of Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic) nor (Melee) alone. To clarify, I could use both a Bolter (or any basic ranged weapon/ Pistol) and Combat knife( or any Melee weapon) with no penalty, but not two Bolters, nor two combat knives without the -10 to each hand.

I want to be as fair as possible in this and reflect what the chapter does, yet not be unbalanced. I have no interest in ruining our campaign because I want some over the top gear or traits and be the hero of the group or some other BS.

DJSunhammer said:

Theoretically they SHOULD be, but they are more mid to close range combat oriented than normal tactical marines. Their squads reflect this with multiple special weapons(Plasma guns, Plasma pistols, meltaguns, flamers), specialized close combat weapons(Power swords, Power Axess, Power fists), and lack of heavy weapons. They close the gap and welcome close combat, as that was Russ' favorite place to be. However, it is not beyond them to hold their ground an allow the enemy to close before they launch their counter assault. (Hence Counter attack, which I believe has been added via Eratta)

Ok. You can already do this with no penalties. You can use the bolter one handed from the recoil suppression in his power armour. You can use either hand with no penalties from Ambidextrous. As long as you're not trying to use them both in the same action there's no reason you'd need any other talents. You can't use the bolter in melee either way, and you can't use the CCW unless you're in melee so no issue.

I think we were thinking true dual weilding as opposed to just having one in each hand to be ready for anything. As long as it's not a two handed/heavy weapon you are fine.

Elite advances are the simplest method, and with this situation and in this game system, probably the best. The ability you are suggesting is frankly way out of place and overly complex.

I wound up doing this for him if you all are curious. He can wield his Bolter as a club (1d10+SB Pen 0 Impact) or fire a single shot in melee. All penalties and bonuses apply as they normally would. Also since it was mentioned earlier, I switched Lore:Codex Astartes with Lore: Da Natura Belli (the collected wisdom of Leman Russ).

Take a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer or something with your free hand, fire your Bolter with the other hand. Forget about Two Weapons, who needs it?

Later on, take Two Weapon Fighting talents, and get a Frostblade.

Just so you know: there are already rules for using guns as clubs. Under the 'primitive weapon' entry, it says that gun-clubbing counts as primitive. Obviously, it's your game, I'm just calling attention to the rule.

A Space Wolf has the cheap option of taking the "Ritual Battle" deed from RoB. For 300xp you start with swift attack. I play Wolves on TT too and I'm fine with getting my "extra attack" without thinking about weather my pistol is actually doing the damage. Just stab twice one round and melee shoot the pistol twice the next round. No extra rules needed or wanted here

-Praise Russ!