The PCs have been threatening to call the witch hunters any time they are interrogating anyone about anything.

"Where's the bathroom? Tell me or I'll tattle you on the Witch Hunters!"

"What secrets are you hiding? Tell me or I'll have the witch hunters burn your town down!"

"So, you say you saw some [insert chaos thing here]. Give me all your worldly possessions or I'll tell the witch hunters that you are tainted by having seen [chaos thing]"

This crap has gotten old and gone on long enough!!

I'm trying to come up with strategies on how to deal with this. Some of my thoughts were:

* Townies don't know much about witch hunters and hence arent' afraid of them

* It's unlawful to present yourself as a witch hunter or affiliated with witch hunters in their name (i.e. "Where's your badge?")

* /IGNORE whenever the bring it up and even if they go to "the witch hunters."

* Towns that have been burned down by witch hunters: there's no one alive to spread the word

* Local watch won't let people get bullied by PCs for info

I need other suggestions please!

Jay H

Alot depends on the PC's themselves - how Witch Hunter-proof are they? No one should be completely so.

I wouldn't have regular folk not fear Witch Hunters but priests of Sigmar, nobles etc would be a bit less worried (not completely so).

(a) I let people roleplay and only waive the dice when it's done really really well, otherwise that just adds misfortune or if justified reduces difficulty of task. So at most that's worth a couple of fortune dice and only if Intimidation is being used. Intimidation, like Guile, is a high risk strategy as if it fails target reacts much more badly than a failed Charm check.

(b)If the targets are legimately afraid of Witch Hunters, then sure, why not let it work. Problem is the targets are issue, change targets. More intelligent target says, "Really, which Witch Hunter would that be (make them actually use a Witch Hunter's name and have it get back to him)?" A better one (the Abbot NPC in my last adventure) would reply, "Excellent, haven't seen my old friend since I helped them burn those heretics." Or, if wealthy, "My friends and I are much more likely to be believed than the scruffy likes of you, when was the last time you funded a pilgramidge or founded a sinecure for a priest."

Just on that point, I reinforce "Its social standing more than facts that matter when two parties dispute in the Old World", so NPC's of higher social standing are going to be less impressed.

Adventures like Witch's Song (in big way) and Edge of Night (in small passing way, but one I played up in my game) have witch hunters who are the problem. That won't be a useful tactic then.

© I would start having Witch Hunters show up at times, "Tell us or we will call the Witch Hunter", a dark shadow appears, "And what would merit my attention that you would conceal if told?"

(d) If it makes sense (e.g., they are staying in same city etc.) I would have word get around, a threat gets old if used all the time.

Just a few thoughts.

Rob

valvorik said:

That is awesome.

Call their bluff. Have the witch hunters descend on these punk pc misusing the authority or wasting hunter time with hollow threats and muck raking. Make sure the witch hunters do a hose job on the players so they begin fearing mentioning hunters. But be prepared to allow a lot of collateral damage as an inquisition should be like quicksand, pulling in many hapless people and leaving noone uneffected.

Also talk of strangers marching into a village dishing threats will soon get back to the local lord who will look unkindly to people bring trouble to their lands. That's if the village lynch mob dont drive off the pcs first in an act of communal self protection.

Generally I think everyone who isn't a witch hunter (or a priest of Sigma) should be very wary of them. This has to include the PCs. Trying to use the witch hunters as a tool should hurt the wielder as much as the target. The Witch Hunters are not the old World equivalent of the FBI they are a bunch of fanatical nut jobs who will burn down a village just to make sure one witch is dead.

The first time the PCs summon the Witch Hunters to a town or village the investigation should immediately expand beyond the targets the PCs had intended. The locals who have been threatened will start making accusations against the PCs (and if they have any NPC friends of the PCs). The Witch Hunters will then start 'questioning' people to get to the truth. If the PCs are taken, give them a number of random critical wounds equal to their toughness (ie so they are only just alive) and ask them to make a Daunting (4d) Discipline Check. If they fail they confess to whatever the witch hunters want just to stop the pain and are taken away and burnt. If they survive they are declared innocent (I would rig the wounds deck to ensure the 'random' wounds included a serious injury - nothing teaches a lesson quicker than a lost eye or hand). If they refuse to be taken in for questioning they will become wanted.

If you don't want to go this far then I would recommend just having the whole investigation blow out of control and let lots of perfectly innocent people die because of the PCs actions. You could make it so the PCs have to work extremely hard to stop the Witch Hunters turning on them (especially once they find out that the PCs have been trying to claim the authority of the Witch Hunters). You could use this as spur into a really dangerous (and unpaid) side mission. To prove to the Witch Hunters that they are honest sigmarites they could be asked to complete a task for the Witch Hunter. This should be something dangerous but unglamorous - and possibly something which could backfire on them. For example if it involved exposure to lots of corruption you could have the PCs take a job from a witch hunter to prove their innocence only to develop mutations during the course of that mission and so be unable to return to the witch hunter.

valvorik said:

This is the first thing that popped into my head when reading the OP.

Another idea:

Introduce an NPC which the PCs need something from that the NPC is unwilling to give (information or assistance).

This NPC is a secret Witch Hunter agent.

"Really? You're going to call the Witch Hunters on me you say? Dear me. What was your names again?"

On the arrival of the witch hunter(s) ask the players to roll up their next characters. Just as a precaution of course. Should get the message across.

Award them with "Honorable Position as the Torches of the Order of Flame" etc.

Now they are witch hunters. As they are not a immense organization they just have to do their stuff for themselves.

Guy walks into a bar.

"Gimme a pint!"

Barman serves him his pint, tells him it'll cost three brass.

"Ha, I think I deserve it for free, otherwise the order o' the torch is gonna take an interest in this place."

Barman tells him he's a god-fearing man, served in the Imperial army, always attends church and helps out at the temple. Also, that'll be five brass now.

"Don't think you understand buddy, I'm friends with a witch hunter captain see? Got his ear, see? A word from me and bam, your havin' words with the Order's torturers..."

Barman says they've had witch-hunters come through before, watched them burn down a local farm, had to stand by, help out even, because corruption spreads even under a friendly face. Says that this guy doesn't seem much the type to hang around with witch-hunters. That'll be a shilling, buddy.

"Now see here, I don't think you understand, you want to call my bluff, that's a dangerous game your playing, might get you all your family put to the pyre inst..."

Barman stops him right there and tells him yes, calling his bluff is exactly what he's doing. Having a witch-hunter pay a visit isn't the sort of thing you mess around at, it's the sort of thing you need substantial evidence for. Witch hunters hear a lot of accusations come through their doors and only respond to the ones they think warrant it, then they bring their special brand of justice to a village and nobody walks away. Barman says to the guy if he's got that evidence then he'd best start running now, because every person in the bar is wont to see him dance on the end of a rope. If he doesn't of course, barman says he understands, but the only thing that'll keep him and all his friends from stringing this guy up is if he drops everything he has on the floor, right now, and makes his way out of the village, now. Maybe this friend of his in the Order of Torch might be nice enough to sort him out with some new britches.

witch hunt: noun; an intensive effort to discover and expose disloyalty, subversion, dishonesty, or the like, usually based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence.

^Go full paranoia on them, the witch hunters are the warhammer equivilent of the men-in-black meets nuke-it-from-orbit. They have been threatening to tell the witch hunters, ok, fine. You have a few options:

1: Have other people use this tactic on them, and don't bluff about it. Nothing like a taste of your own medicine.

2: Rumor starts to spread that a group are presenting themselves as witch hunters without the backing of the church! See above definition and aim at them. Rumor and doubtful evidence is really all the hunters need to come calling. Then "Did you say you would summon the witch hunters?" "Yes." "THEY ADMIT TO LYING ABOUT THEMSELVES! AS WE ALL KNOW LIES ARE THE WORK OF CHAOS! BURN THE WITCHES!" It is just too easy to twist someones words when you are dogmatic. For an example of this watch Black Adder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTGjv8kXzK8 around 11:30

3: As others have mentioned, actually have the hunters come calling and do thier work for them... but, the hunters decide to "kill them all and let sigmar sort them out" say good-bye to any contacts, bases of operations, and resources they have built up in that town.

4: The weak hearted person, (personal favorite) "Tell us or we will call the witch hunters!" *person being interogated has heart attack* have someone else see this and yell out "By Sigmar! They killed that man with just a word! They work evil magic!" Even if they don't call the hunters who is going to be seen talking to someone who is obviously a chaos sorcerer?

5: A servant of Chaos over hears them talking about summoning witch hunters... "By the bitter-sweet ever-changing heart of Tzeentch! They must know about my sinister plan! I must act first! " *starts sending daemonic assasins after them to kill the agents of the witch hunters*

Just a few ideas!

Have a manipulative third party overhear the threats and actually run with the threats, tipping off the witch hunters for the players, of a sudden people are being interrogated left right and centre, and the PCs are getting all the "credit" for reporting all these people. Soon everyone is secretly informing on each other but invariably say the PCs pointed the bone.

I'm going to throw out an alternative suggestion, talk to them out of character. Just flat out say the technique bothers you, explain why, explain why it's a bad idea in the fiction (perhaps suggesting some of these consequences), and ask if they could try something different from here on out. I would recommend doing this at the start of a session, not once they are in a position to be making the threat.

I think that many Gms are faced with this kind of thing. Most commonly it occurs when the players threaten to call the "city watch." We had this go on a few times in the last campaign. I found that it was best to deal with it by simply ignoring them or having things go disasterously wrong.

In "Worse than Disease" I've had players get a little carried away..and the same in the scneario "Karl's and Scents" especially so in the latter.

jh

Steppling back from specifics, it's a common design-question in campaigns/scenarios of any sort as to "why don't heroes call the authorities" which needs to be answered with "they would lock you as loons" (call of cthulhu etc.), "they would lock you up because you're criminals" (any setting in which the heroes are nominal bad guys who discover there are some realllly bad things going on - I like that kind of set up myself, the crime gang getting edged out by cultists), another one being "you are the authorities, the reason you get the 20 shillings a month stipend is to take on all the strange crap and your boss doesn't like you and wouldn't send support or would use it as an example of your incompetence if he did.", to of corse, "because the authorites are part of the problem.."

Haha yeah, very funny read, I would leave it to the dice to some degree.

First time, let them roll an intimidation check to see if the target is bullied at all, if it works, then fine. If the subject has a good reason to be extra affraid then add a fortune dice. As the party use the same threat over and over, I would add more misfortune dice to their check to let them know its getting old both RP wise and to the people in the village.

If the party really do manage to approach a witch hunter on something trivial, he would clearly see them as wasting his time. Witch Hunters usually persue a greater case and unless it fits or can be abused into their investigation they would prolly tell the players to not waste his time.

On the other hand he may also just arrest the poor NPC, interrogate him and have him burned for something rediculus. Letting the players loose an important contact in their own investigation or gaining misfortune dice on all future social rolls in the village amongst the common folk.

You could also have the local baron's men come "escort" the supposed witch hunter party to his castle to discuss how he could assist the investigations of the holy order. When realizing they are just acting as witch hunters without a licence. Throw them in the dungeon.

I think you can also find a good deal of inspiration from running the Witches Song adventure. But yeah in general i would start introducing penalties on social checks amongst common folk

valvorik said:

A good scenario should be constructed to have reasons that realistically make "going to the authorities" impractical. When there are no such reasons, then you as GM have to let them do so ! It's the coherence of the game world that is at stake here. Players don't want to play a "rigged" game.

This said, it doesn't have to play out as the PCs expect it to play out...

Keep in mind that :

Authorities will be very wary of strangers, meaning anybody not actually born in the town and part of a locally known family or guild. They might start asking questions to the PCs that the PCs have no good answer to...

Authorities might have their own agendas that involve protecting or being unduly tolerant of certain citizens or groups. Especially rich and influential ones.

Authorities might not want to intervene when the target is a brass tier citizen (just rabble doing what rabble does), unless there is a grave crime involved of course (murder, ****, theft of a burgher's belongings).

Regarding Witch Hunters :

Witch Hunters are the sword arm of the Inquisition, they work according to very rigid hierarchical rules and have a very complex view of what constitutes heresy and thus falls under their jurisdiction. Needless to say, an actual Witch Hunter has his own agenda and caters to cases of suspected heresy with some evidence (testimonies, material proof, even rumours, but widely spread ones). Witch Hunters use agents to root out such evidence. One of these agents could take interest in the PCs and their investigation... but could quickly become a hindrance for the PCs ! (Interrogates the PCs, has them followed, interrogates people that the PCs have interrogated to know what they are up to... etc...)

People using the Witch Hunter threat to get a free beer at the pub are likely to get the attention of the authorities (local magistrature, bailiff, lord) and unless they are of the Gold tier will likely get seized, flogged and put on the stocks for outrage at the sovereign or a similar offense. Medieval authorities take a VERY dim view at vagrants and outsiders using their name to gain social advantages !!!

Witch Hunters mostly come from Altdorf, so in most instances, saying that you have friends in Altdorf that are Witch Hunters and that will come at your beck and call will seem like a tall tale. PCs wanting to bluff this need to really look the part (no brass tier here) and need to have some evidence or plausible story to make the intimidate seem real. And if they do succeed at this bluff, it might backfire ! If the person targetted actually has something to hide, they might decide that they need to get rid of the PCs as they go back to Altdorf to fetch their WH friends. Delays are long in the Empire, you can't just call in air support ! Targetted NPCs have enough time to sort the PCs out before any word gets to some eventual WH. Think far west here. What do you think will happen if a stranger group threatens the local innkeep to get the sheriff if he doesn't offer free beer !

Conclusion : your players don't understand how the Old World works and aren't playing realistically (unless their party card is Brash Young Fools !). Your role as GM is to make the World react realistically (and entertainingly) to what they do. This thread is jam packed with great ideas ! Go for it. But remember, the goal is that all have fun playing.

the suggestions in this thread are fine BUT the PC's behavior is something that should have been addressed at character creation. i spend most of my prep time now on character creation and a lot of the first part of my sessions are spent getting players to build on, explore and evolve their original concepts based on what has happened in their experiences from the session before. ive found this helps keep their character concept relevant and fresh in their minds and their RP is more consistent.

At character creation -

i insist on everyone playing "heroes or anti heroes". Groups only work well when comprised of like minded individuals.

i insist on everyone playing a character who can work in a group ie no lone wolves.

I insist on names that are easy to pronounce.

i insist on point buy and dont discourage min-maxxing but make sure the players work their dump stat into their characters concept and behavior

I help the players develop obsessively detailed back story, motivation and personalities.

Now suppose Emrikol's scenario came up in my game.

First i would ask myself are the PCs playing anti heroes or was i allowing anyone to be morally ambiguous in a heroic group ?

if the answer was we determined we would be playing anti-heroes or shades of grey i would then ask myself as a GM if i was presenting them with the best opportunity to to play their characters to their fullest ? If they truly are a band of zealous thugs who use the threat of witch hunters to get what they want why do i keep putting them in situations where farmer joe is asking them for help with goblins raiders ? maybe i should try to make a sandbox type adventure that explores the criminal empire to let this band of thugs try this same tactic on knights, nobles, and priests.

if the answer was we determined we would be playing heroes i'd first ask if in game experiences had led to a fall from grace or had influenced the overall behavior of the group. Could corruption, insanity, stress explain the party's transformation ? If the answer was yes then perhaps the campaign needs to change to reflect this. If the answer is no then i would remind the players of their original character concepts and ask if their current behavior is consistent ? Do the party goals need to change ? Should we be playing black crusade and not warhammer fantasy etc ?

to reiterate : be an iron fisted tyrant at character creation and spend 1-2 sessions on character creation. When play starts the players will have a clearly defined set of guidelines of playing their character and you as a GM will have an easy time putting them in situations that let them explore this type of character. win/win. and sessions are less likely to be bogged down when the players are pulling one way and GM is pulling another.

ps.

why don't heroes call the authorities ? if you are asking this question then perhaps the lesser known game of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay : Sidekicks, Bit Players and Sycophants might be for you !

Remember Witch Hunters have a pretty bad reputation in the old world; typically they don't inspire respect so much as terror. Often times the idea of a Witch Hunter, who might have everyone in a given party killed, is far WORSE than the idea of some witch in their midst, who might end up killing a couple random people before moving on.

So another option is to have the community simply avoid the party once they "make it obvious" they are connected to the inquisition. I started to have the issue early in my first game, the party members, knowing they were part of one of the most feared institutions in the old world, tried to use that to intimidate a guard into providing some minor tidbit of information. The guard was sooooo frightened he lied and told them exactly what they wanted to hear.... Which as it turns out wasn't in fact true. Embarrassing for them... they quickly learned the value of a subtle investigation.. additionally by making it clear they're working for a witch hunter, they automatically tip their hat to their quarry that they're on the enemy's trail. So by waving their witch hunter credentials all over the place, they loose the element of surprise. Additionally, as other people have noted, let someone call them on their claim; they're just minor underlings with no authority. The whole point of their existence is because the witch hunter is too busy to deal with everything.

InfinityCSM said:

I can't agree more with this.